Nuneaton to Leamington - direct from December

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by nuneatonmark, 6 Mar 2018.

  1. nuneatonmark

    nuneatonmark Member

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    Heard it from the horses mouth today - from December we should having a cascaded 172 going from Nuneaton to Leamington via Coventry - direct! They have found a path through Coventry that works, so finally we get a service that connects north and south Warwickshire. It will onviously also call at the new Kenilworth station. Second hourly service Nuneaton to Cov still dependent on new bay platform at Cov due December 2019.
     
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  3. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Hmmmm, not convinced.
     
  4. nuneatonmark

    nuneatonmark Member

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    The person from London Northwestern Railway responsible for timetabling said that to me and a room full of people this morning. We were surprised but it was clear what he said.
     
  5. 87015

    87015 Established Member

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    Errr December has only just been sent from TOCs to NR for validation / checking against other operators. There isn’t anyway LM can confirm anything yet before NR review under industry process. They might have found a path and think it’s clear, but it won’t be confirmed yet at all.
     
  6. HLE

    HLE Member

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    Nor me.

    So the current Nuneaton to Coventry service either goes to 1 unit going between Nuneaton to Leamington every 2 hours or has 2 units operating a Nuneaton - Leamington ‘shuttle’, maintaining the once an hour service from all stations. It’ll need more drivers training up on the routes and traction.

    Don’t see the point of making it a through service. If the path can be found to run a through train, then run 1 shuttle nuneaton to Coventry and then connect to a Coventry to Leamington and vice versa.
     
  7. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    He may have found the the key to unlock it as he knows his stuff. I suspect there are a few tweaks required to make it work.
     
  8. pdeaves

    pdeaves Established Member

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    Maybe the intention was "we've found a unit so it will be physically possible to run the service, pathing/timetabling/NR approval permitting"
     
  9. HLE

    HLE Member

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    I remember reading somewhere that both TOC’s and FOC’s ‘complained’ about the performance of the 153’s intended for the Leamington shuttle.

    How they will react to any amendments to the current timetable will be interesting.

    I still think the idea of joining up the two shuttle services is a waste of time. Have a good connection at Coventry and the jobs a good’un. Last thing that’s needed on the Nuneaton - Coventry Line is the service to be delayed due to issues on the Leamington branch or at Coventry.
    The regulars like the almost bulletproof reliability of the current service! Even if the heating has to be turned off when it turns into a game of sardines.
     
  10. nuneatonmark

    nuneatonmark Member

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    As I understand it there will be 2 172s allocated to the service from December. I get the points about reliability issues with much more opportunity for delays BUT a through service is much better from a passenger point of view and it will open up a lot of new journey opportunities. Having 2 separate services has it's own issues anyway, if one is late it can miss the connection and you have to wait nearly an hour for the next one. From December 2019 it shouldn't be a problem as the service between Nuneaton and Coventry should go half hourly if they manage to build the bay in time. We'll see how it goes, if the through service does not work then it should be easy enough to split the service. The timings DO need to be fully ratified but the chap from LNWR was pretty confident.

    Wouldn't be great to have a through Leamington to Leicester or even Nottingham service? I know there are huge obstacles at Nuneaton to overcome to do that. I predict that the new through service will be very popular and will fill the 2 coach train very quickly.
     
  11. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    I suggest that is exactly what was said - people often hear what they want to hear in a conversation in which they are personally invested.

    That said it would be great if such a service could be made to work without impacting on other services through Coventry
     
  12. nuneatonmark

    nuneatonmark Member

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    How incredibly patronising! You suggest what was said but you were not there! The first question was 'So it's going to be a through service between Nuneaton and Leamington with no change needed at Coventry', answer was 'yes'. Second question 'What about pathing conflicts at Coventry?'. Answer : 'We have found a path that works through Coventry'. he then went on to say that strangely on Sundays it might not work, but we're still working on that.
     
  13. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Without wishing for any further statements of fact to be deemed "incredibly patronising" you prove my point. WMT well have found a path. That is not that same thing as your initial statement:

    I suggest that WMT may well have found a path that works for them. That suggestion needs to be validated and approved by NR after comment from the other TOC/FOC. NR may conclude that while a path does exist on paper it imports too much risk into the existing timetable to validate.

    BTW - In what forum was this meeting held? Are minutes available?
     
    Last edited: 7 Mar 2018
  14. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Are you old enough to remember the last direct one? Not huge numbers crossing nuneaton but a reasonable flow heading for cross country services.
    Personally I found it more useful (from Lincoln) when it switched to Birmingham.
    We did have 1 direct Lincoln - Leamington Spa and Lincoln - Rugby service but not at decent times.

    That said I think restoring both the Coventry - Nottingham and Birmingham- Nottingham via Nuneaton would be a positive thing. They should never have got split. But understand the pathing issue on the former.
     
  15. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    I think they have cracked it to be fair but it steals a freight path though I think from what I can see. Any delay in the up service may cause a couple of problems though.
     
  16. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

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    Are you able to informally speculate which path you think it might be?

    Also,could this mean that journeys from Leamington to the North of England will become fastest via Nuneaton? Especially when Trent Valley service goes main line from Stafford to Crewe.
     
    Last edited: 7 Mar 2018
  17. DavidGrain

    DavidGrain Member

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    Perhaps I am not fully in the loop here but how will a Bay Platform enable trains to run through from Nuneaton to Leamington?
     
  18. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    Nuneaton - Coventry every 30 minutes, with alternate extensions every 60 minutes continuing to Leamington Spa should if the paths work out.

    The bay platform will be for the Nuneaton - Coventry terminators, plus maybe additional trains to Arena when there are events on there. Perhaps nuneatonmark or The Planner could comment further?
     
  19. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    As I have said above it will be great if this can be timetabled. I remain a bit skeptical simply due to the possible impact on other services via even the smallest delay on the movement through Coventry station.

    It wont, but it might allow for 2 separate services ( Nuneaton > Coventry & Coventry > Leamington) to be run removing the need for a train to cross through the station at Coventry. It also allows the Nuneaton train to move out of a through platform and reduce conflicts within the station.
     
  20. cle

    cle Established Member

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    If the path can be found, what do people think are the huge draws of the through service?

    Are there that many in-demand connections at Leamington or Nuneaton which can't be made at Coventry - which is also the largest destination of the three?

    From Nuneaton I can think of the Trent Valley smaller stations (but Coventry has services to Stoke, Crewe and north) and Leicester (and onwards towards Stansted). From Leamington, Bicester perhaps? Maybe some other Chiltern places and Stratford-uA at a push.
     
  21. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Do LM have two spare 172 sitting around as claimed earlier, due to stock cascades? Sorry been a bit out of the loop recently.
     
  22. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    No, they are getting them in from elsewhere apparently.
     
  23. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    That would be the London Overground (2-car) 172s which are due to transfer in December.
     
  24. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Providing the wires work on the Gospel Oak to Barking line and the Class 710s arrive. I believe testing using Class 378s is still ongoing on the GOB and the Class 710s are yet to arrive in ARL's hands.
     
  25. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    The expiry date of the current leases on the 172s is the key here. If the end date is December 2018 then London Overground will have to find another solution in the event the electrification is not complete. As for EMUs there will be plenty of 315s going spare that could be used as a fallback.
     
  26. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

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    Wikipedia seems to indicate under future fleet that West Midlands Trains will have these 8 x 172s in service this year too. Presumably leases have been agreed.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Midlands_Trains

    As regards separate Nuneaton / Coventry and Coventry / Leamington shuttles, surely having a through train as is rumoured here would reduce platform dwell time at Coventry which would be of help? Same principle as running through Birmingham New St from North to South rather than running two terminating services and turning them around.
     
    Last edited: 8 Mar 2018
  27. 87015

    87015 Established Member

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    Reported as on lease to WMT 01 July and no intention to agree to any delay to that. Not quite sure what they want all eight sitting around for six months - can’t take that long to do some minor mods and a bit of crew training - but such is life!
     
  28. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

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    Presumably they will be used for driver and conductor training in preparation for December and not sitting around. And another question, will they be used in conductor dispatch mode or in driver controlled mode as I believe they are currently?
     
  29. Jurg

    Jurg Member

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    Warwick for a start, the administrative centre of the county Nuneaton is in. A lot of people work in Warwick who live in Nuneaton and Bedworth and North Warwickshire, or north of Coventry like me. If you don't believe me, you're free to brave the A444 A46 corridor at peak traffic. I usually drive my commute from northern Coventry despite being walking distance from Arena Park because the public transport alternative takes more than twice as long.

    The connection times at the moment in the Nuneaton to Leamington direction are woeful, particularly during the day. 48 minute wait at Coventry. I could potentially make up some time by taking my bike and cycling Leamington to Warwick, but there's no room to squeeze a bike onto the packed WMR train, and the XC train only has limited bike space that has to be pre-booked. Completely impractical. This north-south corridor was the main business case for the entire NUCKLE programme, including Bermuda Park, Arena and Kenilworth. The OP gives me some hope that progress can be made before the building of the bay platform at Cov.
     
  30. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Agreed - a through train will be better. I hope the paths can be made to work. However, is the issue not the platform occupancy but the crossing from one side of the station to the other that a through service would have to undertake?

    2 individual services can arrive from the far left and right of the station respectively and not impact on through traffic. The key risk is the impact on through trains of that crossing move and in particular the impact of delays.
     
  31. HLE

    HLE Member

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    Yes, eventually. By railway timings though it’ll be mid 2020’s before all that is up and running if you ask me.

    Points need to be installed at Arena first for the turnback. Or run up to Hawkesbury points just past the level crossing and switch back onto the up line - a 170 proved those old points still work last Friday.

    Several rumours are going round. One is that the cascaded 172’s from LO will be in service from September. If the LO 172 lease doesn’t get extended it’ll give WMR 3 months to train up half the Coventry drivers and the guards on the units. The logical thing to do is then put them to work on the Nuneaton and Leamington branches.

    Then train up the rest of the depot on both routes and 172’s so the top link doesn’t become a boring repetition of Leamington/Nuneaton diagrams, with the occasional Northampton/X city job thrown in.

    That second bit will take a lot longer than 3 months.
     
    Last edited: 8 Mar 2018

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