NXEA almost leaving me stranded...

[blacknight]

the connection time accross london is completely irrelevant. the delay was on the nxea train therefore nxea's responsibility to assist the passenger

Which under T&C of using "AP tickets they did allow travel on next service which as to be with the same TOC. So NXEA control went even further by making offer to travel of route to get passenger to his end destination with least delay.
See FAQ on AP tickets Question 22 Answer 2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The OP allowed perfectly enough time for this to be a valid connection. The OP accepts that delays happen and all he wanted was for NXEA to agree to him either staying the night in London (at NXEAs expense) or Birmingham (with family) and it is claimed that NXEA refused either option, which is totally and utterly wrong of them, if true (and I have no reason to believe the OP isn't telling the truth).

Cannot see anything in FAQ's on AP as to regards putting passengers up in hotels only to get them to end destination. Problem with Birmingham is as AP ticket is valid on Virgin only what happens once passenger is in Birmingham, is it possible following morning to get passenger end destination at reasonable time using Virgin trains?

 

[yorkie]

FAQs are just Frequently Asked Questions!

Here is the contract:

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination
by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

The OP came here for advice. The OP has got advice (including from experts who work in the industry in departments that know exactly what the rules are in this sort of circumstance) from knowledgeable people. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you are not knowledgeable, you are very welcome to learn and ask questions but please do not pass off incorrect ideas as fact or as an argument against good advice.

Yes, we all make mistakes, and no-one knows everything, and yes some details are open to interpretation, but I do have concerns at the way this thread has developed.

 

[blacknight]

FAQs are just Frequently Asked Questions!

Here is the contract:


The OP came here for advice. The OP has got advice (including from experts who work in the industry in departments that know exactly what the rules are in this sort of circumstance) from knowledgeable people. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you are not knowledgeable, you are very welcome to learn and ask questions but please do not pass off incorrect ideas as fact or as an argument against good advice.

Question I am asking is if you cannot buy a through ticket for journey NRW-SOT routed via LST is this then deemed a valid route for journey being made ie one journey on 2 separate tickets or 2 journeys being made with individual tickets.

Did NXEA control not try to assist stranded passenger by offering alternative by routed via Leeds & Manchester to get passenger to his end destination by 6am using quickest means?

 

[34D]

43 seems too short for lst-eus - yes those of us who know the route can do it in 20, but normal people need to find the tube station, pos buy a ticket, find the platform, get on third train as first two may be packed, then get out of euston square, walk above ground, then find concourse and platform at euston - just my personal opinion.

I'll repeat my earlier post, number 58...

To the people who dispute that the tickets join at London Terminals, consider this:

I have a Stourbridge Jn - Birmingham Stns ticket, and an Advance between Birmingham Stns and Watford Jn. If my Stourbridge train is late into Moor St, causing me to miss my booked train, does that mean when I cross the road and present myself at New Street, that I'm not covered for the delay?

Bear in mind I can only walk between the two.

I think I've lost the will to live now. Is the OP still around, or have we scared him off.

New Street to Moor Street (and kings cross to st panc, and harringay west-harringay green lanes) are walking interchanges. Liverpool st-euston is an interchange for which the tube is specified.

Go on national rail (the public site) and search for a journey that involves doing kx-stp (like cuffley to st albans). You'll be told to walk. Now search cuffley to woking and you'll be told to use the tube.

I really do not understand why people are saying silly things like "a ticket to cross the road" or whatever the quote was. Its just logic. Doesn't need to be written down in my view.

Equally, woking to st albans can be done with one maltese cross ticket, or with three (or more) tickets - woking-wat, wat to st panc, and st panc to st albans - if one of these tickets is not held, then they don't "cover the complete journey" (nrcoc clause 19).

The whole point of London Terminals is to signify that a ticket may be valid to mor ethan one London station.

If I have an off peak ticket from Llanelli to London Terminals, and another from London Terminals to Woking, does that mean that if my train to London is delayed I should be treated differently depending on whether I choose to travel into Paddington or Waterloo?

This is a bad example, as both tickets are (I imagine, without checking) valid into both pad and wat. But yes, if you planned to travel into pad, then pad-slough-windsor-woking then yes you are covered for your complete journey.

FAQs are just Frequently Asked Questions!

Here is the contract:


The OP came here for advice. The OP has got advice (including from experts who work in the industry in departments that know exactly what the rules are in this sort of circumstance) from knowledgeable people. I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you are not knowledgeable, you are very welcome to learn and ask questions but please do not pass off incorrect ideas as fact or as an argument against good advice.

Yes, we all make mistakes, and no-one knows everything, and yes some details are open to interpretation, but I do have concerns at the way this thread has developed.

I have stated my railway employment credentials to you by private message, and don't particularly wish to do so publically (though I do NOT work in a front line ticketing role for a TOC - thank goodness). Therefore others who do can provide better insight.

Possibly we need to ask ATOC for their opinion, or for some TOC to dispute it and a court case to ensue.

In reality, I'm sure NXEA customer services will send vouchers etc to pacify the passenger, rather than raising the unconnected ticket point.

i will note however that those in the industry do seem to consider all points of view, whereas those who are enthusiasts with an (excellent) understanding of passenger rights but who perhaps don't have that TOC insight.

No-one "wants" that! But yes the OP accepted an overnight wait as a possibility but NXEA apparently refused to put him up for the night, and refused him the right to stay overnight in Birmingham (which is even more bizarre!) - but then it's not for NXEA to refuse the Birmingham stay really given that's within Virgin's control, and the OP appears grateful to Virgin for allowing him to do this.

I'm interested to know whether the consensus is that a later journey versus a hotel stay is a choice that the passenger can make, based on their perceptions of 'reasonableness'.

Example kgx-leeds, booked on 1d33 21:35 kgx-lds arrive 00:12 (penultimate service). Suppose this is cancelled, and instead of hotel then EC offer 1d36 23:30 kgx-lds arrive 02:38 (routed via askern hence longer).

 

[yorkie]

Question I am asking is if you cannot buy a through ticket for journey NRW-SOT routed via LST

It's irrelevant.

is this then deemed a valid route for journey being made ie one journey on 2 separate tickets or 2 journeys being made with individual tickets.

The conditions state:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey...

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ will let you plan a journey. If one ticket covers the entire journey, it will give you the price of one ticket. Generally speaking, if a route requires two tickets, it will advise you to buy two tickets for that journey.

In this case, a search for NRW - SOT via LST produces itineraries and with the warning that "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey" (my emphasis).

If you want to learn about conditions, I suggest reading the NRCoC, and if you have any questions, please post in a new thread and we will be happy to assist. That would be far better than confusing the OP in this topic. You are also welcome to attend a fares workshop if you'd like.

 

[blacknight]

Just because National Rail enquiries lets you plan journey don't make it right. I have gone on Virgin EMT NXEA Trainline & EC websites & entered details NRW-SOT route via LST & result on all 5 sites comes up no tickets available, which would suggest to me that its an invalid route to take.
To quote OP
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The OP should accept any half-assed route that the rail industry offers.

If it is wrong for rail industry to offer any half assed route why then is it correct for passengers then to do likewise stitching together AP tickets to make up a route?
Surely if you cannot buy through ticket on your route chosen then you are on an invalid route so any connection time would be irrelevant as there is no booked service for your station for you to connect into. 2 AP tickets are just that 2 tickets 2 journeys

 

[LexyBoy]

Just because National Rail enquiries lets you plan journey don't make it right. I have gone on Virgin EMT & EC sites & entered details NRW-SOT route via LST & result on all 3 sites comes up no tickets available, which would suggest to me that its an invalid route to take.
To quote OP

It is not a Permitted Route as defined by the Routeing Guide for Norwich - Stoke on Trent; however, the RG defines the routes applicable to a single ticket. The NRCoC states (again):

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey...

and

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

 

[AlterEgo]

New Street to Moor Street (and kings cross to st panc, and harringay west-harringay green lanes) are walking interchanges. Liverpool st-euston is an interchange for which the tube is specified.

Go on national rail (the public site) and search for a journey that involves doing kx-stp (like cuffley to st albans). You'll be told to walk. Now search cuffley to woking and you'll be told to use the tube.

I really do not understand why people are saying silly things like "a ticket to cross the road" or whatever the quote was. Its just logic. Doesn't need to be written down in my view.

But the OP has had no opportunity to buy the Tube ticket (which is apparently needed) until he got to Liverpool Street...

 

[jon0844]

If you had an Oyster pay as your use go card, there would be no delay to get a ticket.

Sent from my Sinclair Spectrum via Tapatalk

 

[yorkie]

Just because National Rail enquiries lets you plan journey don't make it right. I have gone on Virgin EMT NXEA Trainline & EC websites & entered details NRW-SOT route via LST & result on all 5 sites comes up no tickets available, which would suggest to me that its an invalid route to take.

As I said, National Rail says "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey".

Ticket booking sites will only let you book ticket(s) from one origin to one destination at any one time, so you will need two searches on a ticket booking sites in order to "buy more than one ticket for this journey".

That seems quite straightforward to me.

If it is wrong for rail industry to offer any half assed route

I have no idea what you mean by that, in any case it's a subjective term based on your opinion.

why then is it correct for passengers then to do likewise stitching together AP tickets to make up a route?

Because the NRCoC says you can ( "You may use two or more tickets for one journey ...")

Surely if you cannot buy through ticket on your route chosen then you are on an invalid route so any connection time would be irrelevant as there is no booked service for your station for you to connect into. 2 AP tickets are just that 2 tickets 2 journeys

Permitted routes apply to tickets, not journeys.

2 AP tickets are just that 2 tickets 2 journeys

No.

I'm getting a little bored of repeating myself but "You may use two or more tickets for one journey ..." that's the rules. If you don't like the rules, or you think they should be changed, then that's up to you. But the rules are quite clear. You may use 2 tickets for 1 journey.

If you want to suggest the rules are changed or express dissatisfaction with them, please create your own thread for that, as it doesn't help the OP here.

 

[Mr Spock]

It's irrelevant.


The conditions state:


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ will let you plan a journey. If one ticket covers the entire journey, it will give you the price of one ticket. Generally speaking, if a route requires two tickets, it will advise you to buy two tickets for that journey.

In this case, a search for NRW - SOT via LST produces itineraries and with the warning that "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey" (my emphasis).

.

Yes NRES will plan a journey via London but after the 18.19 arrival from NRW (16.30 departure) the transfer time between Liverpool St and Euston goes from 43 minutes to 48 minutes which to me shows that there was insufficient time to make a connection to the 21.40 from Euston.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you had an Oyster pay as your use go card, there would be no delay to get a ticket.

Sent from my Sinclair Spectrum via Tapatalk

Of course.

But the OP didn't. So he's being penalised because of his circumstances.

 

[DarloRich]

I actually can not believe some of the responses to this thread!

Do people actually think that it is reasonable to send someone on the 2330 from Kings Cross to Leeds (which is an invalid route IIRC!). That train arrives at Leeds at 02:23! Do people honestly think it is reasonable to simply transfer the problem and dump someone at an essentially closed station for an hour at 0230 in the morning? If he was going to Leeds then fine, that is a sensible choice. He was not going even CLOSE to Leeds!

Bear in mind that there will, I would assume, be no facilities to obtain refreshment or nourishment. There will be limited, if any, toilet facilities, I would suspect all the waiting rooms will be closed. There will be few staff. I think someone suggested the OP get a couple of hours kip on the train, which I am sure will be easy on the last train out of London. There wont be lots of “happy” people on board will there!

It is no wonder people complain about the railways if this is the kind of customer service people receive. It should make no difference that the OP went for the last train. He might have had a personal appointment or work that kept him in East Anglia until the last train. I mean he even left enough time to make the cross London connection (perhaps by chance but still!) This is the kind of thing that drives people into their car

The OP booked valid tickets, he should expect to receive a decent service. What did the chap do wrong except put his faith in the railway system to deliver their side of the bargain? I f it were me I would be writing a strongly worded letter to the chief executive of NXEA and his customer service director pointing out the poor level of service received from his employees, adding that his on train guard was very helpful, quoting the relevant sections of the “rules”, pointing out the stupidity of his control staff offering ( which smacks of give the chap anything and get him out of the door as he will become an EC problem thereafter) and suggesting he might like to look into this and provide some form of suitable, rather than token, compensation for the trouble faced by the OP.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting TOCS simply give the customer what they want ALL the time. However, this is clearly a situation where a little common sense and half decent customer care were called for!

 

[Mojo]

Yes NRES will plan a journey via London but after the 18.19 arrival from NRW (16.30 departure) the transfer time between Liverpool St and Euston goes from 43 minutes to 48 minutes which to me shows that there was insufficient time to make a connection to the 21.40 from Euston.

There is no obligation to use NRES to plan a journey, and its internal formulas is not in the public domain, does not form part of the contract with the customer. The information in the public domain states the minimum connection time as 43 Min, and internal railway computer systems accepted the 45 Min connection.

43 Min is more than enough time to make a connection, even allowing for a typical delay.

 

[Mr Spock]

There is no obligation to use NRES to plan a journey, and its internal formulas is not in the public domain, does not form part of the contract with the customer. The information in the public domain states the minimum connection time as 43 Min, and internal railway computer systems accepted the 45 Min connection.

43 Min is more than enough time to make a connection, even allowing for a typical delay.

NRES timetable is in the public domain so why does anybody need to know its internal formulas?

As for the "43 minute" connection being in the public domain it also states that the time is a guide only and in the late evening extra time should be allowed which according to NRES is at least an additional 5 minutes! All in the public domain.

 

[jon0844]

Transfers via the tube seem to be incredibly generous, like getting from King's Cross to Paddington.

You'd hardly expect to have to add on MORE time to these, as they should already factor in loads of possible delays.

If the TOCs want to reduce their risk, increase the connection times further - but don't be surprised if you then lose customers. We don't know that the OP couldn't get an earlier train. If price was important, there may not have been an advanced ticket available. Or the OP was somewhere that didn't allow for leaving early.

Would you book tickets to go to the theatre/cinema/sporting event and then book an earlier train that means walking out early? Of course not! If the advice was given to travel earlier to be on the safe side, you'd either go by another means of transport or not go at all.

 

[yorkie]

As for the "43 minute" connection being in the public domain it also states that the time is a guide only and in the late evening extra time should be allowed which according to NRES is at least an additional 5 minutes! All in the public domain.

The contractual figure that matters is 43 minutes. Providing you allow this, you are covered. Fact.

Nothing else really matters, but I'd dispute that around 2100ish isn't that late anyway; it's not going to take any longer to do that connection around 2100/2200ish compared to 1700ish (in fact it should take less time!), it's pretty obvious to me that they are referring to later times, but in any case that's just advice and forms no part of the contract (which has already been explained numerous times).

It's a valid connection, and if you use WebTIS to plan a journey such as Colchester - Stoke on Trent, it will give you a connection as 'tight' as 45 minutes, e.g:

Colchester 2003
Liverpool St 2055

Euston 2140
Stoke on Trent 2306
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Transfers via the tube seem to be incredibly generous, like getting from King's Cross to Paddington.

You'd hardly expect to have to add on MORE time to these, as they should already factor in loads of possible delays.

Absolutely.

Why the fuss over cross-London transfers?!

Some of the claims here are a bit wild, e.g. saying that 20 min delays should be expected. Well, by that logic, the cross-London transfers are actually the safest connection times as they're the only connection times that could take a significant delay and still have a good chance of catching your train! 10 mins late into Liverpool St? Should still be safe to get the onward train. 10 mins late at York and your onward train could have gone 2 minutes ago.

 

[LondonJohn]

No-one "wants" that! But yes the OP accepted an overnight wait as a possibility but NXEA apparently refused to put him up for the night, and refused him the right to stay overnight in Birmingham (which is even more bizarre!) - but then it's not for NXEA to refuse the Birmingham stay really given that's within Virgin's control, and the OP appears grateful to Virgin for allowing him to do this.

Sorry but it does sound as if you are suggesting the OP acted wrongly.

I disagree. The 43 mins is already far more generous and allows for far bigger delays than interchange times that do not involve walks (e.g. 8 mins at York). By this logic ALL interchange times must be longer, and rail is then destroyed as a fast mode of transport for anyone who has to change! Do you really want that?

Such hassles are rare, but there is always a small risk of a TOC not acting correctly. The solutions are to fight them, or to drive instead. I'm all for fighting them though I accept some will abandon rail as a mode of transport instead - which is most regrettable.

How do you know the OP had the option of an earlier train? why should people not be able to adhere to the advertised connection times?

The OP was happy to spend a night in a bed other than his own, as I understand it. That's not the issue here.

The journey should be quicker overall around 2200 compared to say 1700.

What are you actually saying here?

The OP allowed perfectly enough time for this to be a valid connection. The OP accepts that delays happen and all he wanted was for NXEA to agree to him either staying the night in London (at NXEAs expense) or Birmingham (with family) and it is claimed that NXEA refused either option, which is totally and utterly wrong of them, if true (and I have no reason to believe the OP isn't telling the truth).

You appear to be putting words into my mouth, at no time have I said that the OP is wrong, I have said in my opinion he was foolish to leave such a short period of time and it would appear that I was right in my opinion because despite using a permitted minimum connection this however did him no good whatsoever and he was left stranded.

Yes the TOC should have looked after his welfare in view of the missed onward connection but it would appear that they didn't. So despite the OP doing everything he should have he was still inconvenienced and left stranded. It was only the saving grace of a bit more customer focussed TOC and the good fortune to have parents in the Midlands that recovered the situation. Others might not be so lucky.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the same TOC that will charge a weekend First Class Supplement for trains where there is no first class advertised and that is their final word on the matter.

On that wonderful example of "take it or leave it" customer service I personally would be more inclined to allow more time for such a journey and if I couldn't I would not risk it as I would not want to be at the mercy of a TOC that has such abysmal levels of customer service.

 

[yorkie]

You appear to be putting words into my mouth, at no time have I said that the OP is wrong

What you are saying does, as I said, sound as if you are suggesting the OP acted wrongly. You may not directly say that, but to me, it does sound like it.

I have said in my opinion he was foolish to leave such a short period of time

I disagree. It was prudent, not foolish, to allow enough time that the connection is a valid one.

and it would appear that I was right in my opinion

I disagree, but you have the right to that opinion.

because despite using a permitted minimum connection this however did him no good whatsoever and he was left stranded.

Actually, he wasn't left stranded, Virgin allowed him to stay overnight in Birmingham. I am extremely surprised NXEA did not agree to this in the first place (and I would argue it's not their case to refuse this!), the OP did absolutely the right thing in seeking help from Virgin Trains once it became apparent that NXEA were failing to adhere to their obligations.

Yes the TOC should have looked after his welfare in view of the missed onward connection

I am glad you accept that. In light of that, given that the OP should have been looked after, how can the OP have acted "foolishly"?

but it would appear that they didn't. So despite the OP doing everything he should have he was still inconvenienced and left stranded. It was only the saving grace of a bit more customer focussed TOC and the good fortune to have parents in the Midlands that recovered the situation. Others might not be so lucky.

In which case NXEA would be in deep trouble, so it was lucky for them as well as the OP...

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the same TOC that will charge a weekend First Class Supplement for trains where there is no first class advertised and that is their final word on the matter.

You're quite right in your criticism of NXEA and I am appalled by their actions.

On that wonderful example of "take it or leave it" customer service I personally would be more inclined to allow more time for such a journey and if I couldn't I would not risk it as I would not want to be at the mercy of a TOC that has such abysmal levels of customer service.

To be honest, and this is no criticism of the OP whatsoever, I'd have dashed to Euston as quickly as possible and asked Virgin for assistance, and given the OPs circumstances with having somewhere convenient to stay in Birmingham, I'd have jumped on the next train to Brum if there was one about to leave and have a word with the TM.

I'm not saying Virgin are perfect and I know there are some dodgy guards around, but they're generally pretty good and I would trust their Customer Service staff (unlike NXEAs) to sort out any issues in the unlikely event that the TM was not helpful.

 

[ainsworth74]

2 AP tickets are just that 2 tickets 2 journeys

You might want to read what Advance Fares FAQs in The Manual has to say on the matter:

Q4. Can a customer buy two advance which join together and form one journey? e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel throughout journey A-C?

A. Yes, provided the train calls at B.

Note 1. Where a passenger buys multiple tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of £10 fee.

Note 2. Where multiple train companies are used A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through journey in the event of delays provided they were booked in accordance with the minimum connectiion times for the station. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge-Peterborough 'XC only' and Peterbourgh-Leeds 'EC only' is allowed to take the next East Coast service in the event of delay on the Cross Country service causing the connection to be missed.

 

[34D]

But the OP has had no opportunity to buy the Tube ticket (which is apparently needed) until he got to Liverpool Street...

He could have purchased some kind of ticket (z1-2 travelcard for example) either online, or in norwich, or from the guard on the norwich-lst train.

If we take London out of the equation, and imagine for example a leeds-derby and derby-spondon, then I think we are all agreed that both tickets need to be actually held, and that if the last sheffield-derby service is delayed en route that there would only be a taxi to spondon if the second ticket is actually held, and intention is insufficient.

For this reason, I still say that "tickets for the complete journey" are not held, and that oyster PAYG or an intention to buy a ticket from a tvm/ticket office are insufficient.

However, we need to know more about the "signalling problems" because if they are something like cable theft or vandalism, then NRCOC clause 43 (the entitlement to a taxi or hotel) doesn't apply at all:

42. Compensation for delays
(a) Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the control of a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to compensation in accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter. This can be obtained from the relevant Train Company’s ticket offces, customer relations offce or internet site.
(b) The amount of compensation offered by each Train Company in its Passenger’s Charter varies from Train Company to Train Company. However, if you are more than one hour late at your destination station you will, as a minimum, be entitled to compensation in the form of travel vouchers in accordance with the table below:
Ticket held Amount in vouchers Single ticket20% of the price paid Return ticket with delay on outward or return journey 10% of the price paid Return ticket with delay on both the outward and return journey 20% of the price paid 7-Day Season Ticket for each day a delay occurs 20% of the price paid ÷ 7 Monthly or longer period Season Ticket The discount or compensation arrangements in the relevant Train Company’s Passenger’s Charter apply.
The table above does not apply if you are entitled to a refund in accordance with Condition 26
(c) This Condition 42 sets out the entire liability of the relevant Train Companies in relation to delays, cancellations and poor service. Except as shown in this Condition 42, the Train Companies do not accept liability for any loss (including consequential loss) caused by the delay and or cancellation of any train. However, they will consider additional claims in exceptional circumstances.
(d) Rail travel vouchers may be exchanged or used in part payment for tickets for any rail journey on the services of the Train Companies.
(e) To qualify for this compensation you must make a claim to one of the Train Companies’ ticket offces or customer relations offces within 28 days of completing the relevant journey, stating the timetabled departure time of the train or trains you intended to use for the journey. When you make your claim you must provide a ticket or other authority to travel which was valid for that journey. A Train Company will allow you to retain a ticket for this purpose.
43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.
44. Circumstances that are within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are within a Train Company’s control include the negligent or wilful acts or omission of its, or a Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents.
45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control include:
(a) acts or threats of vandalism or terrorism;
(b) suicides or accidents involving trespassers;
(c) gas leaks or fres in lineside buildings not caused by a Train Company or a Rail Service Company or any of their employees or agents;
(d) line closures at the request of the police or emergency services;
(e) exceptionally severe weather conditions;
(f) industrial action by a Train Company’s, or Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents or by any other person;
(g) riots or civil commotion; and
(h) fire, mechanical or electrical failure or a defect (except where this is caused by a Train Company or Rail Service Company or their employees or agents, or as a result of the condition of a Train Company’s trains).

Any comments? Can anyone link to NXEA's passenger charter please, so we can see what thay says about circumstances where an overnight stay could be offered??

 

[ainsworth74]

For this reason, I still say that "tickets for the complete journey" are not held, and that oyster PAYG or an intention to buy a ticket from a tvm/ticket office are insufficient.

Why? They held a ticket to London Terminals and a ticket from London Terminals. Holding a tube ticket (or the intention to hold one) is immaterial to this. I'm still interested in seeing a source for this idea that somehow London Terminals tickets cannot be used together under Condition 19 of the NRCoC to form a through journey without the use of a tube ticket when there is no requirement to actually travel by the tube on any of these connections.

Any comments? Can anyone link to NXEA's passenger charter please, so we can see what thay says about circumstances where an overnight stay could be offered??

The relevant section of NXEA's passenger charter can be found here. To quote:

If the delay occurs after your train has started its journey, we will do our best to get you to your destination station by train, or to arrange alternative transport. If this is not possible, we will get you back to an appropriate station or may, depending on the circumstances, provide you with a hotel room and allow you to travel the next day at no extra charge. If the train you planned to catch is delayed or is cancelled, and as a result you decide not to travel, a full refund will be issued.

This I believe is pretty much verbatim what the NRCoC says (so NXEA are doing their contractual minimum for the passenger). I also agree with those posters who say that it is not reasonable to expect the OP to accept the alternative itinerary that NXEA offered and that hotel accommodation would have been much more logical rather than forcing the OP to travel throughout the night including stays in the middle of the night in deserted stations.

 

[LondonJohn]

What you are saying does, as I said, sound as if you are suggesting the OP acted wrongly. You may not directly say that, but to me, it does sound like it.

I disagree. It was prudent, not foolish, to allow enough time that the connection is a valid one.

I disagree, but you have the right to that opinion.

Actually, he wasn't left stranded, Virgin allowed him to stay overnight in Birmingham. I am extremely surprised NXEA did not agree to this in the first place (and I would argue it's not their case to refuse this!), the OP did absolutely the right thing in seeking help from Virgin Trains once it became apparent that NXEA were failing to adhere to their obligations.

I am glad you accept that. In light of that, given that the OP should have been looked after, how can the OP have acted "foolishly"?

In which case NXEA would be in deep trouble, so it was lucky for them as well as the OP...

You're quite right in your criticism of NXEA and I am appalled by their actions.

To be honest, and this is no criticism of the OP whatsoever, I'd have dashed to Euston as quickly as possible and asked Virgin for assistance, and given the OPs circumstances with having somewhere convenient to stay in Birmingham, I'd have jumped on the next train to Brum if there was one about to leave and have a word with the TM.

I'm not saying Virgin are perfect and I know there are some dodgy guards around, but they're generally pretty good and I would trust their Customer Service staff (unlike NXEAs) to sort out any issues in the unlikely event that the TM was not helpful.

Forgive me as I am not sure how to quote only selected parts and reply to points raised but if the OP wasn't stranded then the title of this thread is a bit misleading as he says Stranded by NXEA and also people are quoting the contract for care to be provided when you are stranded.

Also, I do think he was foolish to allow such a tight connection with a TOC notorious for poor customer service but that is my opinion and of course people are free to have an alternative opinion. I personally would not expose myself to the possibility of things going wrong with a TOC that have such a poor track record.

One thing that hasn't been touched on much in this thread is the other alternative journey that NXEA suggested. If the contract says :

Help from Train Companies if you are stranded* (though it has been mentioned the OP was not stranded).

If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, _*any*_ Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

It is my understanding that their first solution was to get the OP to his destination via an alternative route though here you have the definition of what is reasonable to some people might not be reasonable to others and vv.

Could it not be argued that they said well we offered to get him home via this routing and he chose not to take us up on that offer ?

To be honest, I am not surprised at the fact that NXEA did not offer him to go via Birmingham in the first place firstly because of their poor track record on customer service and secondly because of the disjointed infrastructure that is the railway in the UK.

Lack of ownership and passing the buck are rife. I tried to get an onward taxi from Southampton from SWT after missing a connection when my XC train was late into Southampton Central. SWT at the station refused as it was XC's fault because their train was delayed. I wrote to XC with the taxi receipt and was told that they were not going to pay it because the delay was caused by an earlier faulty door on a SWT at Winchester. You give up the will to live and have better things to do than to get into squabbles with 2 TOC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....For this reason, I still say that "tickets for the complete journey" are not held, and that oyster PAYG or an intention to buy a ticket from a tvm/ticket office are insufficient....

Since when are LUL tickets (for use wholly on the LUL network) subject to the NRCoC anyway? The entire journey on NR is covered by the tickets held.

Forgive me as I am not sure how to quote only selected parts and reply to points raised....

Type [/QUOTE] after the part you want to address and copy & paste the original quote tag when you re-start the quote.

Also, I do think he was foolish to allow such a tight connection with a TOC notorious for poor customer service but that is my opinion and of course people are free to have an alternative opinion. I personally would not expose myself to the possibility of things going wrong with a TOC that have such a poor track record....

Perhaps he should have allowed an extra 45 minutes in case the train is late, oh, but what if it is an hour and a half late, well I guess he should have allowed for that also. I think two and a quarter hours to get from Liverpool Street to Euston should be more than okay, but then what if there is a delay of more than two hours.........

How far do you want to go down that avenue? The advertised connection time is 43 minutes. NR says that that is the minimum time you should allow for that connection. The Op allowed 45 minutes, which is more than 43 minutes.

 

[yorkie]

Forgive me as I am not sure how to quote only selected parts and reply to points raised but if the OP wasn't stranded then the title of this thread is a bit misleading as he says Stranded by NXEA and also people are quoting the contract for care to be provided when you are stranded.

I take your point, though it was luck that Virgin helped and there was a train to Birmingham, etc, however I have edited the thread title to better reflect the reality.

Also, I do think he was foolish to allow such a tight connection with a TOC notorious for poor customer service but that is my opinion and of course people are free to have an alternative opinion. I personally would not expose myself to the possibility of things going wrong with a TOC that have such a poor track record.

As I said, I'd have every confidence in Virgin sorting it out as the onward TOC. I had problems with NXEA being delayed and EC (GNER back then) sorted it out with a phone call to NXEA.

One thing that hasn't been touched on much in this thread is the other alternative journey that NXEA suggested. If the contract says :

Help from Train Companies if you are stranded* (though it has been mentioned the OP was not stranded).

I think the OP would have felt pretty 'stranded' at the point that he asked for help from NXEA.

If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, _*any*_ Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

Indeed. But they allegedly refused for him to stay overnight in Birmingham - that's inexcusable.

It is my understanding that their first solution was to get the OP to his destination via an alternative route though here you have the definition of what is reasonable to some people might not be reasonable to others and vv.

This has already been discussed in this topic and I believe the consensus is that it's only fair the OP is given that as an option as he may purely want to get to SOT as quick as possible, however it could be seen as unreasonable so the OP has a right to refuse it.

Could it not be argued that they said well we offered to get him home via this routing and he chose not to take us up on that offer ?

But why on earth did they offer this, yet deny him the right to stay in Birmingham? It's nonsensical, and I can certainly see why the OP gave talking to them and sought help from Virgin.

To be honest, I am not surprised at the fact that NXEA did not offer him to go via Birmingham in the first place firstly because of their poor track record on customer service and secondly because of the disjointed infrastructure that is the railway in the UK.

I'm not surprised at anything NXEA says as they make up the rules as they go along.

Lack of ownership and passing the buck are rife. I tried to get an onward taxi from Southampton from SWT after missing a connection when my XC train was late into Southampton Central. SWT at the station refused as it was XC's fault because their train was delayed. I wrote to XC with the taxi receipt and was told that they were not going to pay it because the delay was caused by an earlier faulty door on a SWT at Winchester. You give up the will to live and have better things to do than to get into squabbles with 2 TOC.

Yes, SWT are very bad at this sort of thing too. It doesn't make passengers "foolish" though. Some of the TOCs who are run by bus companies seem to think that bus company rules apply and ignore the NRCoC that protect the customer (though they are keen to enforce the aspects of the NRCoC that are favourable to the TOC!) I think they hope that most passengers will just accept what they are told, never read the conditions and not know their rights. In the past, they'd be able to get away with this, but now people can easily communicate online, people are going to realise they've been had.

 

[blacknight]

As I said, National Rail says "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey".

Ticket booking sites will only let you book ticket(s) from one origin to one destination at any one time, so you will need two searches on a ticket booking sites in order to "buy more than one ticket for this journey".

That seems quite straightforward to me.

Because the NRCoC says you can ( "You may use two or more tickets for one journey ...")

Permitted routes apply to tickets, not journeys.

No.

I'm getting a little bored of repeating myself but "You may use two or more tickets for one journey ..." that's the rules. If you don't like the rules, or you think they should be changed, then that's up to you. But the rules are quite clear. You may use 2 tickets for 1 journey.

If you want to suggest the rules are changed or express dissatisfaction with them, please create your own thread for that, as it doesn't help the OP here.

Maybe it is because like passengers you are not getting the answer you wish to hear.
I refer to Section 13 of Conditions of Carriage Route you are entitled to take.
1Through Train
2Train which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger service
3Trains which take routes as shown in routing guide
IMO if there is no through fare for route being taken then you have 2 tickets for 2 separate journeys.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed. But they allegedly refused for him to stay overnight in Birmingham - that's inexcusable.

See answer 22 on freqently asked questions on AP Tickets Next service on same TOC
As it was AP ticket Virgin Trains Only once in Birmingham OP would have been strande as he would have been required to purchase new ticket to use XC service to Stoke on Trent
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is not a Permitted Route as defined by the Routeing Guide for Norwich - Stoke on Trent; however, the RG defines the routes applicable to a single ticket.

If not a permitted route do you really have a connecting train to catch at Euston

 

[LexyBoy]

Maybe it is because like passengers you are not getting the answer you wish to hear.
I refer to Section 13 of Conditions of Carriage Route you are entitled to take.
1Through Train
2Train which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger service
3Trains which take routes as shown in routing guide

You've not included the first line:

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

This does not affect condition 19 which allows you to make one journey using two or more tickets, as mentioned once or twice before.

IMO if there is no through fare for route being taken then you have 2 tickets for 2 separate journeys.

You have two tickets for one journey.

As it was AP ticket Virgin Trains Only once in Birmingham OP would have been strande as he would have been required to purchase new ticket to use XC service to Stoke on Trent

That would depend on the arrangement between Virgin and the OP. If it was arranged to travel to Birmingham instead of Stoke then I'd agree; if it was to stay over in Birmingham instead of Virgin (or NXEA) arranging overnight accommodation in London before onward travel then I would argue that Virgin would be bound to convey the OP to their destination (either by arrangement with XC/LM or with VT via Crewe or somewhere).

If not a permitted route do you really have a connecting train to catch

Permitted routes apply to tickets (NRCoC 13). A single journey may be made of two or more tickets (NRCoC 19). NRCoC 25(d) states "if your journey involves a change of train, you allow at least the minimum interchange time shown in the National Rail timetable (...)"

 

[blacknight]

This I believe is pretty much verbatim what the NRCoC says (so NXEA are doing their contractual minimum for the passenger). I also agree with those posters who say that it is not reasonable to expect the OP to accept the alternative itinerary that NXEA offered and that hotel accommodation would have been much more logical rather than forcing the OP to travel throughout the night including stays in the middle of the night in deserted stations.

Frequently Asked Questions on AP Tickets Answer 22 To get them to home destination with least delay. Again Leeds & Manchester are hardly village halts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would depend on the arrangement between Virgin and the OP. If it was arranged to travel to Birmingham instead of Stoke then I'd agree; if it was to stay over in Birmingham instead of Virgin (or NXEA) arranging overnight accommodation in London before onward travel then I would argue that Virgin would be bound to convey the OP to their destination (either by arrangement with XC/LM or with VT via Crewe or somewhere).

So Virgin can make phone calls to other TOC's but NXEA are unable to arrange likewise with EC & Northern to get passenger to end destination with least delay
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This does not affect condition 19 which allows you to make one journey using two or more tickets, as mentioned once or twice before.



You have two tickets for one journey.

Are you sure as if you read Frequently asked questions on AP tickets

Answer 22 Example of 2 AP tickets being held clearly states passenger should also have a single tube ticket for it to be classed as combination ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You might want to read what Advance Fares FAQs in The Manual has to say on the matter:

Q4. Can a customer buy two advance which join together and form one journey? e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel throughout journey A-C?

A. Yes, provided the train calls at B.

Note 1. Where a passenger buys multiple tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of £10 fee.

Note 2. Where multiple train companies are used A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through journey in the event of delays provided they were booked in accordance with the minimum connectiion times for the station. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge-Peterborough 'XC only' and Peterbourgh-Leeds 'EC only' is allowed to take the next East Coast service in the event of delay on the Cross Country service causing the connection to be missed.

I have if you go to answer 22 the example given for combination of 2 AP tickets being held when travelling via London also states passenger should also have a single tube ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Frequently Asked Questions on AP Tickets Answer 22 To get them to home destination with least delay. Again Leeds & Manchester are hardly village halts.....

You need to read Q22 again.

"....If a passenger is delayed and the rail industry or it's partners is at fault, which should be checked with your control office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of the combination of tickets held...."

Virgin don't serve Leeds.

However Question 23 says in times of disruption staff can use their discretion (as advised by control).

....So Virgin can make phone calls to other TOC's but NXEA are unable to arrange likewise with EC & Northern to get passenger to end destination with least delay....

Well, not really, but if Virgin are happy to convey him from Birmingham to Stoke then that is that (even if it means going backwards and forwards).

Are you sure as if you read Frequently asked questions on AP tickets

Answer 22 Example of 2 AP tickets being held clearly states passenger should also have a single tube ticket for it to be classed as combination ticket.

It does not clearly state that at all. It has examples where a tube ticket is present. It does not say you need a tube ticket!

If you still believe that you need an underground ticket, perhaps you could answer the Kings Cross-St Pancras connection issue on those grounds? DO you need a tube ticket from Kings Cross to St Pancras to be covered as if you hold a through ticket?

 

[AlterEgo]

If you still believe that you need an underground ticket, perhaps you could answer the Kings Cross-St Pancras connection issue on those grounds? DO you need a tube ticket from Kings Cross to St Pancras to be covered as if you hold a through ticket?

Or what about even Euston to King's Cross? Many people (if not most!) will walk between the two. This is eminently sensible, even if a journey planner will implore you to bear the cost of a £4.00 single and extra time to get the Tube!