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NXEA Finally respond regarding charging for 1st class when not advertised

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Daz28

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How is the NXEA behaviour different to Chiltern, who charge a premium to sit in 1st class accommodation on services which are not advertised as having a 1st class service?
 
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AlterEgo

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How is the NXEA behaviour different to Chiltern, who charge a premium to sit in 1st class accommodation on services which are not advertised as having a 1st class service?

They don't charge a premium to sit in First Class at all! As you say, there is no First Class. They have a Business Zone, which is clearly marked and advertised. I rather suspect it isn't in the National Rail Timetable, which is what you're getting at, isn't it?

I still don't believe it's the same, however. Chiltern clearly advertise their business zones and enforce them.
 

DaveNewcastle

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However, in this case Norwich-Sheringham I see Anglia have a "AFS - ANGLIA 1ST SUPP 00000 - ANY PERMITTED "
1 Adult @£ 7.00 = £ 7.00
__________
£ 7.00
First Class Single

Whereas a SDS is only £6.00 for the same journey.
Is that £7.00 not just NXEA's Weekend First available "Between any two stations served by a National Express East Anglia reservable mainline service"?

Even so, I would say pursuing a First Class fare on that route with a Standard Class timetable was "unenforceable through the courts"
Could you help me here please? Could you direct me to the Section of the Act (or other binding document) which supports this opinion?
I've read and re-read S.39 of the Conditions of Carriage (Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket) and Section 19 of the Railway Byelaws (Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths) and of course the Regulation of Railways Act. I've found nothing so far to suggest that NXEA acted unlawfully in this matter though I happy to continue reading through other files if you are sure about this.
Thanks
 

raildude

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Is that £7.00 not just NXEA's Weekend First available "Between any two stations served by a National Express East Anglia reservable mainline service"?

Could you help me here please? Could you direct me to the Section of the Act (or other binding document) which supports this opinion?
I've read and re-read S.39 of the Conditions of Carriage (Travelling in first class accommodation with a standard class ticket) and Section 19 of the Railway Byelaws (Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths) and of course the Regulation of Railways Act. I've found nothing so far to suggest that NXEA acted unlawfully in this matter though I happy to continue reading through other files if you are sure about this.
Thanks

I agree.

1) The accommodation on the train is clearly marked as First Class
2) The ticket holder has a standard class ticket.

There does not appear to be a legally-binding contractual requirement to declassify 1st class if it isn't advertised. (nor do they have to advertise first class is available).
 

jon0844

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So does that mean every other operator can now charge a penalty fare for people sitting in first class, even if it's not in the timetable?

My goodness, I hope the NXEA move doesn't become the benchmark for all other operators. Now as it happens, other TOCs will happily write a letter to you to carry that gives permission, but I guess they could change their mind quite easily.
 

AlterEgo

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I think there needs to be a distinction made between what is wrong/misleading and what is unlawful. Certainly there appears to be nothing in the Railway Byelaws about this eventuality, as DaveNewcastle has correctly pointed out.

Again, there is nothing in the NRCoC saying that trains not specified as having First Class accommodation in the timetable are considered declassified throughout.

What I do believe though, is that NXEA have acted wrongly and I am disappointed that they refuse to consider their position. I am unsure where NXEA and the OP both stand regarding consumer laws. I would be interested to hear an interpretation.
 

jon0844

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Just like the evening peak restrictions introduced by FCC did. (Well not all other operaters in that case, but certainly some others).

I thought ONE introduced them before FCC did? I'm pretty sure there was an evening peak introduced from Liverpool Street before it came in at King's Cross.
 

pemma

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From a different prospective I've been on Northern Rail trains with two trains joined up where the guard has, part way through a journey, thrown passengers off one train and on to the other even where there isn't an issue with platform lengths like Victoria-Huddersfield. If a guard is allowed to do this then what's the difference between that and telling someone to move out of the FC area? I appreciate in this instance they were told to pay an excess to remain in FC and not just told simply to move.
 

Daz28

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I still don't believe it's the same, however. Chiltern clearly advertise their business zones and enforce them.

Agreed.

In this example, NXEA don't advertise that 1st class is declassified, there is no publication that indicates that standard class tickets are valid in 1st class accomodation.

The indication of 1st class in the national timetable clearly indicates those service where passengers can expect and rely on 1st class accomodation being available. I don't think there is anything to prevent a TOC providing additional services with 1st class accomodation that are not listed in the timetable.

Is the belief that 1st class is declassified unless listed in the timetable just an urban myth?
 

jon0844

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If it's an urban myth, it seems odd that most TOCs will confirm in writing, on forums, by email that it's okay to sit in first class when it's not advertised.

It's hard to believe TOCs are that generous, but certainly easier to believe that some are more greedy!
 

raildude

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Agreed.

In this example, NXEA don't advertise that 1st class is declassified, there is no publication that indicates that standard class tickets are valid in 1st class accomodation.

The indication of 1st class in the national timetable clearly indicates those service where passengers can expect and rely on 1st class accomodation being available. I don't think there is anything to prevent a TOC providing additional services with 1st class accomodation that are not listed in the timetable.

Is the belief that 1st class is declassified unless listed in the timetable just an urban myth?

In reality this has happened:

Standard class ticket holder sits in first class accommodation because it is not listed in the timetable as usually having it.

-Ticket collector comes along says "this is the first class section, you must have a 1st class supplement/ticket to remain here".

-Passenger complains because it isn't advertised as having first class, yet the area he is sitting says first class everywhere...

hmm.
 

pemma

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If it's an urban myth, it seems odd that most TOCs will confirm in writing, on forums, by email that it's okay to sit in first class when it's not advertised.

When there's so many overcrowded trains, it seems common sense for operators to say the first class seats are available for standard class passengers on services where First Class is not advertised.
 

All Line Rover

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Agreed.

In this example, NXEA don't advertise that 1st class is declassified, there is no publication that indicates that standard class tickets are valid in 1st class accomodation.

The indication of 1st class in the national timetable clearly indicates those service where passengers can expect and rely on 1st class accomodation being available. I don't think there is anything to prevent a TOC providing additional services with 1st class accomodation that are not listed in the timetable.

Is the belief that 1st class is declassified unless listed in the timetable just an urban myth?

The timetable dictates whether or not a train has First Class accomodation. If it says that a train does not have First Class accommodation, then the logical interpretation is that the entire train is Standard Class. What else could it be? If, according to the timetable, the entire train is Standard Class, just because some seats have First Class antimacassars and First Class stickers on the windows does not automatically mean that those seats are "First Class."

Whilst DaveNewcaslte makes a valid point, I disagree. The NRCoC discusses travelling in First Class accommodation with a Standard Class ticket. The timetable says that there isn't any First Class accommodation on Norwich to Sheringham trains, so the OP was not travelling in First Class accomodation with a Standard Class ticket.

I am completely disgusted by NXEA's customer service, and their lack of knowledge, reasonableness and common sense. Goodbye NXEA, Hello AGA!
 

raildude

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The timetable dictates whether or not a train has First Class accomodation. If it says that a train does not have First Class accommodation, then the logical interpretation is that the entire train is Standard Class. What else could it be? If, according to the timetable, the entire train is Standard Class, just because some seats have First Class antimacassars and First Class stickers on the windows does not automatically mean that those seats are "First Class."

Whilst DaveNewcaslte makes a valid point, I disagree. The NRCoC discusses travelling in First Class accommodation with a Standard Class ticket. The timetable says that there isn't any First Class accommodation on Norwich to Sheringham trains, so the OP was not travelling in First Class accomodation with a Standard Class ticket.

I am completely disgusted by NXEA's customer service, and their lack of knowledge, reasonableness and common sense. Goodbye NXEA, Hello AGA!

Where does it say that the National Rail Timetable forms any part of a contract with the passenger?
 

radamfi

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I am completely disgusted by NXEA's customer service, and their lack of knowledge, reasonableness and common sense. Goodbye NXEA, Hello AGA!

Will there be any difference in staffing between NXEA and Abellio's customer service departments?
 

All Line Rover

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Will there be any difference in staffing between NXEA and Abellio's customer service departments?

Their senior management might be a little more reasonable. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Where does it say that the National Rail Timetable forms any part of a contract with the passenger?

NRCOC said:
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail timetable is not available on any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

Logically, the reverse would also apply.

If the National Rail Timetable does not form any part of the contract with the passenger, then can I politely ask what the point is of Advance tickets and seat reservations?

I would also like to ask this: "Where does it say that the existence of First Class antimacassars on the seats and First Class stickers on the windows forms any part of a contract with the passenger?"
 
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jon0844

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Surely you go by the NXEA printed timetables, or those available on its website? Do they show 1st class?

I am rather stunned by this, but I am prepared to accept that there may be no concrete ruling. It seems that every other TOC agrees that no first class on a service means first class is declassified (without the need to put up signs or announce the fact), but if NXEA is allowed to do something else - I guess that's up to them.

Are there no services in to and out of Liverpool St that have no first class advertised? What happens there, when the trains are arguably more crowded?

FCC experimented with signs similar to those going on the 377/5s a few years back. They had them on the doors to the 317/1 compartment in the middle of the train. They soon stopped, presumably as someone would have to put them up (and take them down) manually - and there was also probably a good chance that the temporary signs would be nicked and placed on other services by people wanting a free upgrade!!

I assume the 377/5 signs will be quite permanent and the antimacassars will be removed.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Is there actually a rule written down saying that if no FC accommodation is advertised, then you can sit it with a SC ticket, or is this just someone's interpretation.
 

jon0844

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Well, it will either be up to each TOC to decide - or ATOC will side with NXEA and we'll see every TOC going for the 'if there's first class accommodation, we'll treat it as first class no matter what' approach.

FCC and others could presumably then dish out PFs even when there's no advertised first class fare!
 

All Line Rover

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Well, it will either be up to each TOC to decide - or we'll see every TOC going for the 'if there's first class accommodation, we'll treat it as first class no matter what' approach.

FCC and others could presumably then dish out PFs even when there's no advertised first class fare!

I doubt it. ATOC's "ruling" may influence how the TOC's operate, but if it was a "bad" one (from the passengers perspective) TOC's wouldn't be able to dish out PF's unless this new "ruling" was inscribed in the T&C's and on NRE. I doubt this would ever happen, to be honest, as it wouldn't make sense. First Class passengers wouldn't be any happier, as they still wouldn't know when a train with First Class accommodation would turn up!
 

ainsworth74

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Surely you go by the NXEA printed timetables, or those available on its website? Do they show 1st class?

The NXEA timetable (found here) does not show first class as being available on these services.

Expect an ATOC brief very soon....

But which way? The way that is standard practice elsewhere (and benefits the passenger) or the way that is NXEA practice (and benefits the TOCs)?
 

ralphchadkirk

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I appreciate that there is no "ruling" on the matter (which is annoying) but you would expect common sense to apply in these scenarios.

Common sense and simplification would say only sit in first class if you have a first class ticket.

Sometimes the option that is better for the passenger isn't the common sense option.
 

All Line Rover

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Common sense and simplification would say only sit in first class if you have a first class ticket.

Sometimes the option that is better for the passenger isn't the common sense option.

Even if the timetable says that that service does not have First Class, and First Class tickets are not available? Doesn't seem very sensible to me... :roll:
 

AlterEgo

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How many passengers consult a paper version of the timetable?

First Class tickets not being available for your particular journey is totally irrelevant.
 

ralphchadkirk

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How many passengers consult a paper version of the timetable?

First Class tickets not being available for your particular journey is totally irrelevant.

And how many passengers, if they do look at the paper timetable, will look for the tiny FC accommodation symbol? Whats more, I suspect that the vast majority of people will just make the natural assumption (and probably the correct one) that no FC ticket = don't sit in FC.
 

RJ

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Why are you all shocked? Given that NXEA saw fit to uphold an incorrectly issued Penalty Fare against me, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Even if the timetable says that that service does not have First Class, and First Class tickets are not available? Doesn't seem very sensible to me... :roll:

What has the lack of First Class tickets got to do with anything? Any missing FC fares can be created at a rate of 1.5 - 2 times as much as the standard fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, and this is the point.

Expect an ATOC brief very soon.... :lol:

It is to be assumed that all accommodation on a given service is standard class unless it is shown that the service conveys First Class accommodation in the National Rail Timetable.
 

table38

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Conversely, I travelled to North Wales today and the TVM at Stalybridge offered me a First Class fare... this was for a Northern 156 to Newton-le-Willows, and an ATW 175 from there, neither of which have any First Class accomodation.

(I suppose you could go First Class with TPX for the whole 12 minutes to Piccadilly and change to your 175 there :))
 
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