NYMR takeover proposal?

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Tomnick

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No, it wasn't an April Fool's gag - it is, apparently, a serious proposal! Indeed, it has been rumbling on for some time now with ever decreasing credibility. I've not seen it mentioned on here anyway, so thought I'd share it for further discussion and/or amusement.

For those with Facebook access, a group has been set up to promote the proposal, which can be found here. This all seems to stem from a petition (here) started by a chap by the name of Neil Kipling (who has his own campaign group, here - make of it what you will) seeking reinstatement of the line between Rillington and Pickering (so far so good) with the main justification being the need for a direct service between York and Whitby. It's unclear whether he's still involved in the above group, but he is still promoting that petition himself.

Anyway, the below quote seems to be the best summary of what is proposed. Note the emboldened section, which I can only take to be an indication that this really is planned as a takeover of the NYMR as it stands, rather than funding enhancements and obtaining running powers. The railway has already released a statement (!) - published somewhere - indicating, broadly, that they're not open to regular through trains over their infrastructure.
VA-GTI is a Hong Kong based International consortium of global partners with operations in Heavy industries, Mining, Chemicals, Medicines, Banking & finance.
One arm of this consortium is moving it’s operation to Whitby. It is not only a personal choice for that partner but sound economic sense as well. There are obvious tax incentives, grants etc for any company relocating from north to south.

The Oncological Research and development laboratory will be built in Whitby. The partners in this side of the consortium are part of a Chinese SOE and a US based hedge fund. The lab itself is to be built to the highest Eco standards and will include all the necessary Eco technology to make itself sustainable. The building itself will be glass fronted with a Sedum roof. It will include reed ponds and landscaped gardens and will as much as possible be self-sustaining and merge beautifully into the landscape

This in in turn will create local jobs in many fields. Lab technicians, Maintenance, Security, Grounds people are just some of the roles to be created from the local population. Lab tech roles are graduate entry level and therefore training and apprenticeships will be created. Grant schemes will be brought in to for school leavers to attend University for qualification’s in medical, research or any other industries that would be beneficial to the area. As has been done previously by the group in the US with Whistle Innovations scheme. This in time will be a big local employer for the local area. Now ask yourself is that good positive news for the local economy?

Oncocogical research into breast cancer and prostate cancer is a multimillion pound industry. In the groups clinical trials Category 4 cancer patients have been up and walking for the past five years.

What you may ask yourself has that got to do with 6 miles of track Between Rillington &Pickering? Nothing ! The two projects are entirely separate but one benefits the other though indirectly.

Another partner in the consortium is in the financial sector buying Mid term and Short term notes. Which generates a lot of money in a very short time suffice to say not tens, not hundreds but millions of pounds. 30% of the money generated from this process which is long and convoluted (do please Google it) is kept by the consortium to reinvest .
70% of the money generated has to be ploughed back into Humanitarian and community projects. The consortium are not allowed by law to keep it. So they have to invest their money in worthwhile schemes and projects, which can in time, show a return. This money is used via Public Private Partnerships to aid humanitarian projects and community projects throughout the world. Whether it be sinking wells for clean drinking water in Africa, Road & bridge building projects. Renewable energy products, clean-up operations in disaster zones such as Louisiana. One of the latest project being the creation of 30 KM stretch of clean water in the Yellow river in China with partners COFCO.

This is the background to the investment potential for the Rillington link project. It should not be looked at as a one off investment either. This 70% capital is created bi-annually. There is the potential to relay brand new double track to mainline standard from a triangle formation at Rillington throughout to Whitby. Including all necessary signalling and ancillaries .On top of this a year round maintenance program can be accommodated with stock upgrades, restoration projects and a commuter and freight service for remote farmers and residents alike. All this can be incorporated and still retain the heritage charm of the NYMR. Creating the first heritage railway capable of operating to mainline standards. This in turn would make it an excellent destination for Railtours and Mainline steam operators.

All,Volunteers and the ongoing projects of the NYMR would be retained and enriched. All steam and Diesel heritage trains will run as normal with potential for extended services.
A new station is also in the planning for Flamingo land making it a direct National rail served destination, theme park and resort.

The centre of Pickering will not be destroyed as other routes have been identified

The potential to create something really special exists whilst retaining all the hard work and loyalty the NYMR has built up in its long history. There is nothing to fear from this and it does make excellent economic and commercial sense for all concerned. Let’s get some doors opened and start talking
How very bizarre!
 
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markindurham

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Somebody must have been smoking some serious stuff to come up with that! Fantasy doesn't start to describe it.

Also, no proper approaches appear to have been made to any of the local authorities; indeed, the only publicity seems to be on a couple of Facebook groups which, to be brutally frank, will bar and block anybody who has the temerity to question any part of their 'project'. Make of that what you will.

In addition, there appears to be no evidence of the 'investors' backing this actually existing. One would have thought that there would be some trace on the Web, but it appears not. How strange is that?
 

STEVIEBOY1

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There has been lots of talk for years about extending the NYMR towards Rillington/Malton & onto York. Nice if it happened but so many hurdles to clear.
 

fsmr

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A number of articles in the local press in the Autumn about this such as this one with NYMR response
Lets not forget that there is a world of difference between a restored 1950s style heritage railway with its quaint and tourist necessary 1950s jointed track and signalling , to a modern NWR infrastructure capable of hosting 70 mph plus passenger trains. 40 mph even over the NYMR section would be a non starter for time limited scientists

http://www.whitbygazette.co.uk/news/local/end-of-the-line-for-rail-link-campaign-1-6890054

My thoughts are forgetting about the railway, why would you build Hi-Tech science facility in Whitby, when all the research scientists you want, live and work around Cambridge and Oxford currently

If you want a nice location as your criteria, there are plenty that are already connected by Network rail 125 MPH and more trains
 

E&W Lucas

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How very bizarre!

That's all you need to say about it.

Cancer treatments - The University of York is already involved with research in that field!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There has been lots of talk for years about extending the NYMR towards Rillington/Malton & onto York. Nice if it happened but so many hurdles to clear.

This has been talked about only by trainspotters. No one with any concept of reality, gives it a second thought.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am sure Alf Roberts will be along to offer help an advice shortly

:lol::lol::lol:
45015 to work the opening train, via Dunstable!
 

Maidofastolat

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Hello all!

First post here, I was directed here by another member of a Facebook group I am admin on.

The latest post from these people is this:
The new tax year is upon us. New figures will be available from May. In the meantime let us compare and contrast the finances of our heritage railways. A good time to ponder and ask how private finance might help the NYMR. What do they need and how can we improve local services and connections whilst retaining the heritage secondary mainline feeling the NYMR instils? Followed by links to heritage railways accounts, and then a statement that:

Brian Oldford said:
I'm not quite sure what point you're making.
Andy Debuse said:
There is a strong financial case for investment in heritage railways.
Richard Francis Sequeira said:
Very good idea Andy . Way to go .


Jack Miason said:
So are your investors going to invest in many heritage railways?
How does private investment work for the NYMR as it is a charity with a trust board?
Have they indicated that they want a large private investment and to change the way they operate? Also, can you please outline the strong financial case, what returns do investors expect to get?
Sorry for all the questions but I had thought that the reason for this was for a company to move their labs and that was why the route was being proposed, but looking at this it seems a somewhat different proposal is on the cards.

He has also posted a long list of unrestored steam engines that could be a possibility for restoration in the future...

I want whatever he is on for sure, it must be nice in cloud cuckoo land!
 
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markindurham

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This guy should go back to making exceedingly good cakes.
Indeed. However, the bloke posting all this latest guff is not actually Kipling, but one of his sidekicks - despite protestations to the contrary...


Just so that we're clear, this is the FB page of these people

https://www.facebook.com/groups/353032798232190/?ref=ts&fref=ts

Now, considering that they're nothing to do with the NYMR, and somehow I doubt that they would EVER be invited to work with the NYMR, the arrogance of the tone of some of the postings is impressive, to say the least. It looks as though they are wanting to take over other lines too, doesn't it?

Also note the use of the euphemistic 'Royal "we"' on a regular basis...

I do wish that these folk would come onto forums such as this and openly debate, rather than only posting where they can control content - but perhaps we shouldn't hold our breath...their reluctance to do so, hiding behind wibble about 'confidential discussions', 'local opportunities' etc., speaks volumes, does it not?
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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To return to the world of reality, what prognostications have been forthcoming from those quarters where such a proposal would be shewn to be incorporated in a new franchise agreement that bidders will be expected to so incorporate into the bidding process for same.
 

Tomnick

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It's not at all clear who they expect to operate this proposed commuter service from Whitby to York, Paul. Some posts seem to suggest that the new-look NYMR would operate them themselves (with Pendolinos?!). I doubt very much that it'll cover its own operating costs (including, given the stated aim to retain the existing heritage, staffing the NYMR's signal boxes - and control office? - for early starts and late finishes daily) so there'd have to be some sort of subsidy involved if an existing franchise were to take it on. The emphasis is on a single private investment source (given that a far cheaper alternative, in the form of the existing route, exists for the limited demand for travel through to/from Whitby, public money is unlikely to be forthcoming anyway), so one must also consider what might happen when the investor moves on, runs out of money or simply gets bored of his new trainset...!
 

markindurham

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It's not at all clear who they expect to operate this proposed commuter service from Whitby to York, Paul. Some posts seem to suggest that the new-look NYMR would operate them themselves (with Pendolinos?!). I doubt very much that it'll cover its own operating costs (including, given the stated aim to retain the existing heritage, staffing the NYMR's signal boxes - and control office? - for early starts and late finishes daily) so there'd have to be some sort of subsidy involved if an existing franchise were to take it on. The emphasis is on a single private investment source (given that a far cheaper alternative, in the form of the existing route, exists for the limited demand for travel through to/from Whitby, public money is unlikely to be forthcoming anyway), so one must also consider what might happen when the investor moves on, runs out of money or simply gets bored of his new trainset...!

Absolutely. Note how it's all being 'spun' to make it sound as though if (when) it all fails to go through then it would all be down to the 'intransigence' of the NYMR for not being 'cooperative'. Again, this points to somebody simply trying to stir up trouble for the NYMR. The question is, why?
 

Standard 4MT

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It has also been suggested by a "close" member that Pendolinos could run using the NYMR, I kid you not, they must be taking more than pot! No mention of overhead electrics just the tilting of train to go round bends faster at 40mph, yea OK.

Running modern units on the NYMR section on doubled track, continuos weld, at 40mph by a main line TOC is not my idea of keeping the NYMR heritage as it is untouched?

Just a little confused as seen it all before, without Chinese backers. Why spend £200 million on re developing and opening this line all the way to Whitby with a new Triangle at Rillington, to get staff to work from new labs being relocated from Cambridge, which no one can find? A answer of common sense appreciated please.
 
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Bevan Price

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Being cynical, whilst they may be genuine, I just wonder slightly if they have there eyes on some part of NYMR land that has potential to become a lucrative redevelopment site ?

People / organisations with lots of money rarely spend substantial sums unless there are prospects of good financial returns.
 

markindurham

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Being cynical, whilst they may be genuine, I just wonder slightly if they have there eyes on some part of NYMR land that has potential to become a lucrative redevelopment site ?

People / organisations with lots of money rarely spend substantial sums unless there are prospects of good financial returns.

That thought has crossed a few peoples' minds. Let's face it, the Chinese aren't exactly known for philanthropy, are they?

It's either that or this is just mischief making by people who simply hate the NYMR. The latest guff, published last night, is that 'talks' have been scheduled with the NYMR, but when challenged as to when said meeting was, the person who made that claim could only reply "ASAP". Somehow I doubt that any meetings are likely to occur; the last time one took place, only out of courtesy from the point of the railway, the 'leader' of this bunch of dreamers then misrepresented what was said. Well, he is attempting to get elected as a Councillor in Whitby, so I suppose that 'spin' comes naturally - but probably best not to go there...
 

Tomnick

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Being cynical, whilst they may be genuine, I just wonder slightly if they have there eyes on some part of NYMR land that has potential to become a lucrative redevelopment site ?

People / organisations with lots of money rarely spend substantial sums unless there are prospects of good financial returns.
It's a very interesting question!

As a serious investment proposal, it seems bizarre - not only would the potential returns be rather limited anyway, given the isolated nature of most of the route and the probability that any through service would be operated by others, but also it would be significantly cheaper (both in terms of the initial cost of the required enhancements and ongoing operating costs) to provide the proposed York to Whitby service over the existing route via Middlesbrough with a similar journey time.

As a significant contribution to the local community as a condition of a major development (as claimed, more recently, by the promoters), it seems bizarre - destroying, or at least severely damaging, an important part of the local heritage and compromising the £30m that the NYMR has been shown to contribute to the local economy each year, for no other reason than to provide something that could be provided by other means at a lower cost.

There's definitely something not right!
 

Standard 4MT

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It's a very interesting question!

As a serious investment proposal, it seems bizarre - not only would the potential returns be rather limited anyway, given the isolated nature of most of the route and the probability that any through service would be operated by others, but also it would be significantly cheaper (both in terms of the initial cost of the required enhancements and ongoing operating costs) to provide the proposed York to Whitby service over the existing route via Middlesbrough with a similar journey time.

As a significant contribution to the local community as a condition of a major development (as claimed, more recently, by the promoters), it seems bizarre - destroying, or at least severely damaging, an important part of the local heritage and compromising the £30m that the NYMR has been shown to contribute to the local economy each year, for no other reason than to provide something that could be provided by other means at a lower cost.

There's definitely something not right!

This alternative of using the Esk Valley Line, a already up and running line, has been put to them showing with minimal investment this line could end up taking the same time or less, although longer distance, to get from their wanted start/finish points. Timings have be shown with a semi fast service, an extra unit, a extra passing loop (or even 2) and alteration to sections, or signalling, this route would give all their requirements. Virgin East Coast will be running five new trains each way from Middlesborough to York then onto London each day, at a quicker start date than building a new line, a proposal for an existing TOC to also offer better services and onward to York. There can be a long term plan to remove the in/out station at Battersby, and even relay route to Picton, all costing much less than their proposals, but no it keeps getting refused saying the only route we want is through the NYMR and no matter what is said, it will damage or kill off the NYMR. The Chinese either have to much money to waste with no hope of any return, or it's the mad hatters tea party all over.
 

markindurham

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This alternative of using the Esk Valley Line, a already up and running line, has been put to them showing with minimal investment this line could end up taking the same time or less, although longer distance, to get from their wanted start/finish points. Timings have be shown with a semi fast service, an extra unit, a extra passing loop (or even 2) and alteration to sections, or signalling, this route would give all their requirements. Virgin East Coast will be running five new trains each way from Middlesborough to York then onto London each day, at a quicker start date than building a new line, a proposal for an existing TOC to also offer better services and onward to York. There can be a long term plan to remove the in/out station at Battersby, and even relay route to Picton, all costing much less than their proposals, but no it keeps getting refused saying the only route we want is through the NYMR and no matter what is said, it will damage or kill off the NYMR. The Chinese either have to much money to waste with no hope of any return, or it's the mad hatters tea party all over.
Indeed. They appear to be sticking their fingers in their ears and going "nah nah nah - we're not listening" whenever practical and logical counter arguments to their ideas is offered. Oh, and then they block you...

They MUST be aware of the discussions here and elsewhere away from FarceBerk. The fact that they seem to be refusing to come out and debate somewhere where they can't control what's said speaks volumes...
 

fireftrm

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Mark has a very good point over the supposed planded meeting with the NYMR. There have been more posts, where the Facebook group admin was asked to reply to a third party, who says he has a senior NYMR manager ready and willing to meet him, his reply is that they are not going through a third party and if NYMR want to talk then they should use the 'normal channels', yet there is no trace of the supposed investment company (VA GTI Asset Management Hong Kong) and so no email, or phone contact. The 'private' investor is a David Andrew Reall, of Pontefract, who was made bankrupt in 2004 and has given no contact details anywhere and the FB bloke is from Bridlington. Businesses don't use FB for dealings, so these clowns have to give some 'normal channels' if they want to be taken seriously. I think they are NYMR haters out to cause damage.
 

bluenoxid

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I'm pretty sure NYMR have reviewed the idea and the "crew" behind it.

For faster access south with silly millions, Nunthorpe to the ECML appears to be the winning idea as well as improving the existing line. Sadly, the geography and existing infrastructure layout in the region puts any idea on the back foot. The NYMR is there and making a real impact. This little group aren't there.
 

markindurham

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Quite so. There's only so much that can be done to speed up the existing route, but if connections are right at Middlesbrough then even now Whitby-York is not too badly timed. Certainly times would be very favourable against what could be achieved via a reinstated through line over the NYMR & on to Malton/York. Remember, the route was built for horse-drawn traffic, & even in BR days speeds were limited to 35-40mph because of the curvature.

The possibility of reopening Battersby to Picton, with a new south-facing connection to the Middlesbrough-Northallerton line, has been suggested, but really, again one has to consider the potential traffic, and would it pay? I suspect not, certainly in today's financial climate.

There's another potential rebuild too, of course, & one which might actually prove popular. That's to reinstate the line to Guisborough, which would take much commuter traffic off the main road between Guisborough & Middlesbrough. A single unit shuttle would suit - and remember that this would also serve Nunthorpe and James Cook Hospital. In fact, you could simply extend the Middlesbrough-Nunthorpe services which have been introduced since the station at the hospital was opened.
 

Standard 4MT

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Agreed Mark, and with the Potash mining due to be granted approval by the Council planners on Thursday that's another unit and three trips a day from Whitby to Middlesborough. Not forgetting the five trains a day each way to York and London from Middlesborough when Virgin East Coast start their new services in 2018 and we have what looks like a much better service on the Esk Valley line, and new contract/franchise for Northern they are adding a early new additional departure from Whitby to arrive at Middlesborough by 09:00 meaning the train service will become available to workers for the first time.
 

markindurham

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this seems so much wibble - surely based on a corruption of several of the proposals for servicing the new potash mines
Would that it was just wibble, Rich...

...it's more like mischief making <(

This isn't anything to do with the potash workings, but to fill a non-existent demand for large numbers of folk to travel between York & Whitby - the bus service that runs between these places isn't full, so quite how the railway would pay for itself is a mystery. Perhaps it's inspired by the naked Native American in "Wayne's World 2" - "If you build it, they will come". Really? :p
 

DarloRich

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Would that it was just wibble, Rich...

...it's more like mischief making <(

This isn't anything to do with the potash workings, but to fill a non-existent demand for large numbers of folk to travel between York & Whitby - the bus service that runs between these places isn't full, so quite how the railway would pay for itself is a mystery. Perhaps it's inspired by the naked Native American in "Wayne's World 2" - "If you build it, they will come". Really? :p

but for what purpose? I cant really see a point to causing trouble
 

markindurham

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but for what purpose? I cant really see a point to causing trouble

That's the big question, which has also been posed elsewhere - and it's nice to see that other people are asking it. Answer - why indeed? It looks as though those responsible have some sort of vendetta against the NYMR. Their refusal to debate this matter on open forums such as this speaks volumes... :roll:
 
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