NYMR takeover proposal?

[Tim R-T-C]

Join any railway society and you will pretty quickly discover groups like this - it is the reason there are so many duplicative restoration and preservation groups for instance.

 

[markindurham]

M'yes, but this appears to be an effort to effectively bulldoze the NYMR out of existence...

 

[route:oxford]

My thoughts are forgetting about the railway, why would you build Hi-Tech science facility in Whitby, when all the research scientists you want, live and work around Cambridge and Oxford currently.

You've spotted the mistake...

Someone made a bit of an error with the translation from Chinese at some point and typed "Whitby" instead of "Witney".

Handy for Heathrow, handy for Bicester village good investment properties in the Cotswolds and many people would welcome the re-opening of the route between Witney and Oxford.

 

[markindurham]

you've spotted the mistake...

someone made a bit of an error with the translation from chinese at some point and typed "whitby" instead of "witney".

Like it!

 

[Standard 4MT]

Originally Posted by route : oxford
you've spotted the mistake...

someone made a bit of an error with the translation from chinese at some point and typed "whitby" instead of "Whitney"

Like it!

A very good explanation.

 

[Tomnick]

The latest post (pinned) on the Facebook group suggests that new members will be subject to a search on 192.com or, suggested elsewhere, the electoral roll! It seems that they've had a couple of people commenting on there under false names, presumably having been banned previously for daring to express an opinion contrary to the party line. It also makes reference to this thread, and similar on two other forums - not defending the proposal against the criticism levelled against it, but merely attempting to discredit it by linking some of the posters here to another Facebook group (confused yet?) which was previously set up, in response to the initial proposal, to provide a venue for open discussion of all the options. Apparently, those named have "gone to such great lengths to discredit this [those proposing a takeover of the NYMR] group" - yet absolutely nothing has been put forward as a credible defence. Indeed, some fundamental questions, posed repeatedly, have gone completely ignored.

Perhaps the community would like to discuss the following comment, from this thread on the group?

It is the best option for the available budget. The best option to secure a new rail-ink to the network directly onto the York-Scarborough line. Reinstating a lost commuter service whilst retaining and improving the heritage infrastructure and services of the NYMR. Potential timings via the NYMR are 55mins against 85 mins for the EVL. The NYMR could become self sufficient and a leading transposrt and historic railway venture in North Yorkshire,whilst taking nothing away from its current operations and heritage.

It has, of course, been pointed out on numerous occasions that a comparable Whitby to York direct journey could be achieved for a fraction of the cost (both initial investment and ongoing operating costs) over the existing route - the "available budget", bearing in mind that they acknowledge that the proposal will cost something in the region of £100m, could stretch to enhancements on the Esk Valley line to improve journey times and capacity, providing a decent direct service from York, reinstating Rillington to Pickering to support a shuttle service and putting a substantial amount of money into the NYMR to improve its existing operation! The last part of the comment is interesting too - again, it's been shown (in detail) exactly how imposing regular 'modern' through services from the national network onto the NYMR's core operation will be potentially very damaging, from both heritage and commercial points of view. The journey times quoted just seem to have been pulled out of a hat too.

A direct link between Witney and York does start to seem quite sensible in comparison .

 

[markindurham]

It should be pointed out, of course, that "those named have "gone to such great lengths to discredit this [those proposing a takeover of the NYMR] group" - yet absolutely nothing has been put forward as a credible defence" is nothing more than the fabled pot calling the kettle black, and indeed is a direct copy of a challenge made to them on several occasions. Many attempts have been made to get this mob to engage in open debate, yet they refuse to do so, quoting "commercial confidentiality", "we can't say anything in case it scares the investors away" and other such guff. A channel of communication to the NYMR was offered in good faith, but has been rejected out of hand. They seem to be under the impression that the NYMR should be contacting them! Really? How arrogant. There's no point, it seems, in trying to debate with them; they either ignore questions, despite promising to do a 'daily Q&A session', or simply block anyone who challenges 'the project'. Now, I understood that, regarding forum IDs, the accepted rules are that one challenges the post, not the poster. That doesn't work with this bunch...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You've spotted the mistake...

Someone made a bit of an error with the translation from Chinese at some point and typed "Whitby" instead of "Witney".

Handy for Heathrow, handy for Bicester village good investment properties in the Cotswolds and many people would welcome the re-opening of the route between Witney and Oxford.

You did not expect your "gem" to pass about Witney station without comment, did you? It was one of the ten stations on the Oxford, Witney and Fairford Railway (22 miles in length of single track). It left the main line in the area of Yarnton. Passenger services ran until 1962 and the occasional goods train up to 1970.

This line has been used in the past on the Closed Stations Journey quiz on the Quizzes and Games forum.

 

[Tomnick]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better, there's been a further update on the Facebook group (this post) explaining some of the potential benefits of this project. The highlight is a "brand new Mallard Steam Engine", which might even be able to break the world speed record. There's even a suggestion that "...tourist [sic] would love to have a ride on this memorable railway" and that it could be a "grand success" (have any of them actually visited the NYMR??). Please, put any drinks down before reading, to avoid the need for a new keyboard or mobile device...

I'd also encourage as many of you as possible to join the Facebook group, and to use your railway knowledge and experience to ask some sensible questions of them. It's actually quite good fun watching them studiously ignore anything 'difficult'!

 

[DaleCooper]

Are they getting confused with this:

http://www.goathlandmodelrailway.co.uk/

 

[E&W Lucas]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any better, there's been a further update on the Facebook group (this post) explaining some of the potential benefits of this project. The highlight is a "brand new Mallard Steam Engine", which might even be able to break the world speed record. There's even a suggestion that "...tourist [sic] would love to have a ride on this memorable railway" and that it could be a "grand success" (have any of them actually visited the NYMR??). Please, put any drinks down before reading, to avoid the need for a new keyboard or mobile device...

I'd also encourage as many of you as possible to join the Facebook group, and to use your railway knowledge and experience to ask some sensible questions of them. It's actually quite good fun watching them studiously ignore anything 'difficult'!

I'd be tempted to totally ignore them.
If it was a serious proposal, then it wouldn't be launched on Facebook. Enough said about the reality of it.

People did attempt to interact with the initial York to Whitby rail link group. Any attempt to rationally explain engineering, commercial or railway operational reality was removed, and those posting were removed from the group. Not trolling, just attempting to redirect enthusiasm into a sensible direction.
Some friends found themselves being abused.
Don't give them the attention that they crave.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I have no involvement with the NYMR, nor have I visited it in recent years, but my impression is that NYMR have shown themselves as entirely capable of operating in partnership with other organisations - examples include; improvements at Whitby Station, successful operation of their trains over NR metals on a regular basis, use of NR routes to bring in track relaying materials.

Were I to be seriously proposing a scheme which required the involvement of the NYMR / their property, I would be pretty keen to get them on board at the earliest possible opportunity! If nothing else it would add weight to the seriousness of my proposals!

To have failed to have done so is 'interesting'.

To expect an organisation (the NYMR) to spend its limited resources (staff time) on peripheral activities, such as speculative investment ventures, is not realistic.

In the house-building market, developers often secure options from landowners (cash in the bank, often substantial amounts) in order to secure exclusive rights to the land pending granting of planning permission. Are the scheme proposers putting any money on the table? Do they actually have any money to put on the table?

There is a lot of Chinese investment money looking for a home at the moment (see all the massive rail projects in Africa for example).

Does the NYMR have any significant land holdings which could be developed? The recent goings-on in Staffordshire with the Churnet Valley Railway, Moorland and City Railway, housing development on railway land and selling off for rail for scrap springs to mind.

 

[Standard 4MT]

Your link TomNick is not available to view when I click on it,
Has it been removed or stopped non members from viewing.

 

[Tomnick]

It works for me! Have you, dare I suggest, been blocked from the group for your terribly sensible and fundamental questions?

I'm tempted to (as E&W Lucas suggests) totally ignore them. My fear, incredible as it might sound, though, is that people might actually start to believe their nonsense if it isn't robustly discredited at every opportunity! Even then, I can't imagine it progressing at all, but the talk alone is potentially damaging for the NYMR (with which I have no direct connection) and railway reinstatement projects generally, not to mention the specific cause of reinstating Pickering to Rillington which, whilst still a distant prospect at present, is much more likely to succeed as a standalone scheme than the fantasy project that this lot are proposing!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A Mr Kipling is standing as a UKIP candidate in the forthcoming elections. hock:

Bombarding the local press with letters on a wide range of topics.

Perhaps the electorate of Whitby resent all the tourists (and associated jobs and money) that the railway brings in and will support him in May?

I agree with Tomnick above, ignoring what may appear to you or I as a madcap proposal has risks. They can build up momentum and become established. By not engaging at an early stage you miss your chance to kick an idea into touch before a wider, less knowledgeable, audience starts to believe and support an idea.

Respond with vigour. Make your views known at every opportunity and in every arena.

 

[Maidofastolat]

Neil Kipling has now resorted to emailing the MD of the NYMR and threatening to sue them over comments made about him - alledged slanderous and menacing comments,

When he got no reply he then got a supporter to post the email on a facebook group complaining he had no reply, got the usual responses from his supporters about how the NYMR are scared etc, although two seemed to think it was due to UKIP for some inexplicable reason!

It was robustly defended then the person doing so got kicked from the group, surprise surprise!

It appears he will stop at nothing to get his own way.

 

[markindurham]

This is the geezer who wants to be a councillor...

 

[Maidofastolat]

It is Mark yes.

He needs to realise that being a councillor will put him in the public eye and he could get a lot worse comments made than he has done (incidentally I haven't actually made any slanderous or menacing comments about him), and he can't sue everyone, although he and his great mates A Debuse and D Reall seem to think they can.

 

[alexl92]

I was quite amused that they posted links on their fb page to two rail forums discussing their ideas - in both of which the forum users had, as we've done, comprehensively took the idea to pieces and showed why it's a load of baloney. And yet the guys on the facebook group tried to spin it to show that 'The railway world is talking about this idea' or something to that effect.

 

[markindurham]

I was quite amused that they posted links on their fb page to two rail forums discussing their ideas - in both of which the forum users had, as we've done, comprehensively took the idea to pieces and showed why it's a load of baloney. And yet the guys on the facebook group tried to spin it to show that 'The railway world is talking about this idea' or something to that effect.

Indeed. As Littlejohn would say, "You couldn't make it up"

 

[fsmr]

On as lighter note

Oligarch Smirnov Icicle said his proposed takeover of the Wensleydale Railway in order to connect to Hawes where he plans his 10 billion dollar International Space Port "made perfect sense

Speaking to the Woolypack news this week from his luxury supertanker in Monaco, he said

"

I love Wensleydale Cheese so it will be great to mix work and pleasure building it there, and if we can then run highspeed trains direct from Monaco to the space port at Hawes,

Besides sheep farming and cheese making skills are ideal for launching intergalactic transporters
After all, its not rocket science"

 

[D6975]

I've just noticed that Network Rail seem to think Pickering-Grosmont belongs to them.
Take a look at the NR full network map (geographic version). Pickering - Grosmont is shown as a normal route and is labelled as being in table 45.

(ps, obviously to do with the NYMRs through trains to Whitby appearing in t45)

 

[EbbwJunction1]

This is what I found when I Googled "Repoening the Pickering to Rillington Line"

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11512579.Businessman_backs_reopening_of_Ryedale_rail_link/?ref=rss

Given the date of the article, I think that this was probably what has been referred to elsewhere in the topic, but I thought that it would be interesting, anyway.

 

[37038]

It will never happen. Too much on the trackbed and a feasibility study many years ago put it at £10mill plus. Nowadays, with the Wensleydale Northallerton chord projected to be £1mill for 500yards of track, it's gonna be about 5 times the original estimate

If it does happen in my lifetime, I give permission for someone to remind me so I can print this page off an eat my words...

 

[alexl92]

It will never happen. Too much on the trackbed and a feasibility study many years ago put it at £10mill plus. Nowadays, with the Wensleydale Northallerton chord projected to be £1mill for 500yards of track, it's gonna be about 5 times the original estimate

If it does happen in my lifetime, I give permission for someone to remind me so I can print this page off an eat my words...

Wensleydale Northallerton Chord?

 

[DarloRich]

Wensleydale Northallerton Chord?

the chord from the mainline to the Wensleydale Railway at Northallerton

 

[37038]

Brief referral to it in here: http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...ailway_reveals___250_000_plan_to_extend_line/

Scratch the 1mill I said before, it mentions 6mill in there. So, bearing in mind Northallerton Curve is approx 250-400 yards of new track at a cost of 6mill, imagine how much Pickering - Rillington will be for what, 8 miles?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Brief referral to it in here: http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...ailway_reveals___250_000_plan_to_extend_line/

Scratch the 1mill I said before, it mentions 6mill in there. So, bearing in mind Northallerton Curve is approx 250-400 yards of new track at a cost of 6mill, imagine how much Pickering - Rillington will be for what, 8 miles?

It's 6, but the whole point about the entire scheme is that the route must be viewed as a whole. There is no spare capacity between Grosmont and Whitby, read Whitby and Nunthorpe, as you'd be talking about re - signalling the entire route. There is little or no spare capacity over the NYMR section, and there are significant, effectively insurmountable, difficulties in doing much about that, certainly in terms of re - doubling, which has been suggested by them.

it's an internet fantasy exercise, with no grasp of engineering or railway operational reality, never mind any understanding of the concept of private property!

 

[37038]

Although the NYMR themselves did propose the re-doubling of Goathland - Levisham as a potential project within the next 20 years or something

Not that they've ever got enough operational, mainline registered kettles to run the current service

 

[markindurham]

It now seems that Mr Kipling has posted a petition to build the link & take over the NYMR to drive through this reinstatement of through trains from York to Whitby on the change.org website, and is claiming that both UKIP and the LibDems are supportive of his plan to kill the NYMR. I somehow doubt that - it would be political suicide to deliberately destroy a sizeable lump of the local economy's funds...