NYMR takeover proposal?

[Pinza-C55]

I don't believe for one minute that the proposal as outlined in the OP is genuine but to address 2 points here
1) My first thought was that "if" it WAS genuine it would be related to the Sirius potash mine at Hawsker which I am sure by it's nature and scale will transform the economy of Whitby altogether.Whilst Sirius have gone for an underground conveyor for transporting the potash, if the Whitby - Rillington line was available in it's pre-1965 form it would be an easy way to transport large quantities of potash south for domestic use.
2) The argument that "railways generate new traffic" is a genuine and valid one. You only have to look at the reopening of the Alloa branch where the first year passenger figures were nearly three times as much as the "feasibility study" had predicted.

 

[fireftrm]

1)There is no domestic demand for the polyhydrite (not potash) the mine will produce, all the advance sales promises are from China. Also the mine is NOT to be at Hawsker it is to be at Sneaton, which is closer to the Esk Valley line than Hawsker, but neither is really close to it and the Whitby to Scarborough route would have been the likely candidate, so going absolutely nowehere near Rillington. The clear transport route would have been to Teesside, which is where it is going by tunnel.
2) The Alloa branch as a very large town at both ends and a very clear transport demand existed before it was reopened. Whitby alreayd has a direct rail link and the majority of flow is to/from Teesside, as shown by the bus services too, there being one an hour to Middlesbrough, 3 a day to York. So the clear demand is for travel to Teesside, there being an existing line with no demand for nay other to be rebuilt the obvious thing is to improve the one there now. Alloa had not rail service before

 

[Pinza-C55]

1)There is no domestic demand for the polyhydrite (not potash) the mine will produce, all the advance sales promises are from China. Also the mine is NOT to be at Hawsker it is to be at Sneaton, which is closer to the Esk Valley line than Hawsker, but neither is really close to it and the Whitby to Scarborough route would have been the likely candidate, so going absolutely nowehere near Rillington. The clear transport route would have been to Teesside, which is where it is going by tunnel.
2) The Alloa branch as a very large town at both ends and a very clear transport demand existed before it was reopened. Whitby alreayd has a direct rail link and the majority of flow is to/from Teesside, as shown by the bus services too, there being one an hour to Middlesbrough, 3 a day to York. So the clear demand is for travel to Teesside, there being an existing line with no demand for nay other to be rebuilt the obvious thing is to improve the one there now. Alloa had not rail service before

Point 1) I am well aware that it is at Sneaton but I think most people refer to it as Hawsker or Whitby. You have to remember that not everyone on this forum is familiar with the villages of the Whitby area. I don't think anyone seriously thought it could go via Scarborough.
Point 2) Alloa had a population of a mere 19,000 in 2001 and still has only about 24,000. I think tourism there is insignificant compared to Whitby. Alloa had a very large station till the Beeching era. The Esk Valley line is useless for anyone from the south; when I lived in London and wanted to travel to Whitby I would go by train to Scarborough then use the convenient bus from outside the door to Whitby. There is plenty of demand for Rillington to Pickering to be rebuilt.
However, lest this turn into a long discussion please read my original statement "I don't believe for one minute that the proposal as outlined in the OP is genuine"
To put it more plainly "I don't think it will ever happen" so you don't need to convince me that it shouldn't.

 

[E&W Lucas]

You've probably got a better knowledge of this than I have, but wasn't the line from Whitby to hawsker kept in situ into the 1970s, as the potash was well known of, even then?

A pity it hasn't been regarded as an option now.

If anyone is serious about improving rail transport to Whitby, they will promote development of the Esk valley line. There is demand from the North, that could realistically be tapped into.

 

[Tomnick]

The Esk Valley line is useless for anyone from the south; when I lived in London and wanted to travel to Whitby I would go by train to Scarborough then use the convenient bus from outside the door to Whitby. There is plenty of demand for Rillington to Pickering to be rebuilt.

A common misconception, it seems - with a relatively modest investment and a handful of through services, the journey from Whitby to York via Middlesbrough could be just as quick as, if not quicker than, the fastest that could reasonably achieved via Pickering. If there is any justification for Rillington to Pickering to be rebuilt, it doesn't come in the form of direct travel to or from Whitby.

 

[Pinza-C55]

A common misconception, it seems - with a relatively modest investment and a handful of through services, the journey from Whitby to York via Middlesbrough could be just as quick as, if not quicker than, the fastest that could reasonably achieved via Pickering. If there is any justification for Rillington to Pickering to be rebuilt, it doesn't come in the form of direct travel to or from Whitby.

"relatively modest investment and a handful of through services"

By whom? Services from York to Middlesbrough are run by TPE, Middlesbrough to Whitby by Northern Rail. Two separate companies - why should they co-operate and spend money for each other's benefit ? Spend money on new passing loops or extra signalling ? Train drivers and guards to give them route knowledge ?

"Whitby to York via Middlesbrough could be just as quick as, if not quicker than, the fastest that could reasonably achieved via Pickering"

Seriously ? The North Eastern Railway regarded Rillington - Whitby as the main line into Whitby, and so did British Rail. Beeching wanted to close the Esk Valley line.

 

[Tomnick]

That'd be one for the DfT (because, either way, I doubt that a franchised operator would choose to operate a Whitby service off their own back!) to decide and specify. The easiest way to provide a through service, I think, would be to extend a handful of the existing TPE services, for the cost of a single extra unit diagram per day. Yes, that'd require extra route knowledge, almost certainly an extra crossing loop (Castleton), preferably 'bypassing' the reversal at Battersby and full resignalling throughout - but all of those fade into insignificant compared to the work that'd be required to run a meaningful through service via Pickering, even as an extension of a shuttle to Pickering from York.

I've worked out that a through service via Middlesbrough, with no reversal at Battersby and semi-fast through the Esk Valley, should be able to run between York and Whitby in just over two hours. You might beat that with a lot of investment in the Pickering route, but not working around the constraints of a 25mph heritage service, and certainly not with a long single line with crossing loops laid out for an hourly 25mph service.

 

[E&W Lucas]

It's been suggested that reopening the Picton route (Coast line - Battersby) would actually provide as quick a route to Whitby, as trying to go via Pickering.
I still couldn't see it competing with the motor car. Reopenings have to recognise that transport technology has advanced since the Victorians. Realistically, there isn't a viable rail route into Whitby from the South. From the North maybe, but it does require significant investment. Let us be thankful that the 1980's simplification made the line cost effective enough to keep open.

Looking to the modern era, I wonder if there is a business case to be made for a spur off the Scarborough line, serving Flamingo Land, Eden camp, and maybe Pickering (South). Not necessarily following the original route, and maybe summer only.

As for the above hot air about bulldozing one of the major wealth generators and employers in the area, I wonder if it will go quiet now the election is over?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To update this -

In a triumph for democracy, I hear the Neil Kipling came 4th out of 4 in the Whitby council elections, so failed in his bid for public office.

The troublesome FB group also seems to have disappeared, though a couple of very small (<100 members) spin offs remain.

I think we can safely draw a line under this.

 

[alexl92]

A few people on this thread have mentioned the speed limit and current line capacity as an issue. Could more of the NYMR be doubled to increase capacity, and would it work out economically?

(For the record, this whole takeover idea is ridiculous)

 

[Monty]

I had read in Steam Railway a few years back that redoubling a section of the line was part of the railway's long term plans and that was to support its existing operation and not as a prelude to an extention.

 

[507 001]

Is anybody else as amused by the suggestion to contact beardy Branson as I am?

Hello Guys , I was made a member of this group by my old and good friend Dave Reall. I would like to share some thoughts and ideas .
1) Besides many great inventions , values , systems of governance , legal systems etc it was Britain that gave the world the first railways , steam engine , electric engine that changed the worlds transport for people , and goods. Railways still are the most cost effective , efficient and expeditious means of transport .
2) The York to Whitby via Rillington line is in existence . The main cost of putting in the railway line was done decades ago . I have seen the pictures of some old rolling stock . I do not know the whole picture . These can be overhauled and put in use, at a fraction of the cost of new rolling stock .
3) A signature campaign to get the number of people who are interested and committed to this renewed rail service and then with it a 5-10 Pound donation to raise cash for the feasibility study by a very professional person or group . It there a very rich people who would like to foot the bill for the consultancy , that is very good they could pick the tab .
4) The feasibility study will show the pros and the cons and the cost to benefit ratio for the York to Whitby via Rellington Junction rail.
5) Another good idea is after the above 3) and 4) are done is to request Sir. Richard Branson for some help , as he has excellent railway staff who could assist with the project . Do not be surprised that he will support the project with his name, fame and people . He has donated 10s of millions to charity . http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/on-virgin-trains
6) Some one has mentioned that the train cannot go past 35 MPH as there is a curvature in the rails. This curvature problem and high speeds was taken up by British Rail about 4 decades ago , the decided to have tilting trains . BR worked on it and then gave up . Some years later the Italians took up the same idea , and designed and invented the tilting high speed train called the Pendulino. This is what is being used by Virgin Rail .
7) All the very best in your project , I believe that if people have a vision and work hard as a team, with perseverance, and dedicated commitment then great achievements , can be realized . God Bless you all.

 

[Pinza-C55]

I had read in Steam Railway a few years back that redoubling a section of the line was part of the railway's long term plans and that was to support its existing operation and not as a prelude to an extention.

To be fair there was a story in Steam Railway in 1996 about the plan to rebuild the Stainmore line including Belah Viaduct ! I got the prospectus and they had worked it all out very carefully including estimates for the Belah steelwork

 

[Darren R]

Is anybody else as amused by the suggestion to contact beardy Branson as I am?

Not as amusing as his suggestion that Pendos could be used on the route!

 

[crispy1978]

Knowing Pickering very well, I just can't envisage how it would ever work nowadays, especially if we're talking a direct link through the town. There just isn't any space. The amendment to existing infrastructure would be astronomical.

Pickering (South) could potentially work but Pickering is such a small town really that I don't see it being feasible either.

Never going to work in my opinion.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Here you go.....

 

[Standard 4MT]

Immediate problem with above "joke" photo of route through Pickering is you are not allowed to build "new" level crossings now, it must either be a tunnel or bridge over the line. There is a active rolling program to close Level Crossings going across main lines in the UK. The photo used in computer simulation, is also very out of date of current buildings etc.
Over 3000 have been closed in last few years, and government plans to remove all those that have alternative routes or easy access for bridges to be built.
On my working out it would take decades to close many of the existing ones due to cost, location etc, but the problem is the "no new ones" that will scupper many plans for reopening lines, as no Grandfather rights to reinstall.
The recently extended track in South Wales, Carmarthen, (Heritage Line), were allowed, as it was already in place with track both sides, occasional operational and track used for storage, and not on a major route.

 

[duffield]

Immediate problem with above "joke" photo of route through Pickering is you are not allowed to build "new" level crossings now, it must either be a tunnel or bridge over the line.

Not sure this is true. I thought the ORR had agreed to what are effectively 3 new level crossings (including one across an 'A' road) for the RVR/KESR connection project. I believe there are quite a few conditions attached but it's not actually impossible.

 

[crispy1978]

Immediate problem with above "joke" photo of route through Pickering is you are not allowed to build "new" level crossings now, it must either be a tunnel or bridge over the line. There is a active rolling program to close Level Crossings going across main lines in the UK. The photo used in computer simulation, is also very out of date of current buildings etc.
Over 3000 have been closed in last few years, and government plans to remove all those that have alternative routes or easy access for bridges to be built.
On my working out it would take decades to close many of the existing ones due to cost, location etc, but the problem is the "no new ones" that will scupper many plans for reopening lines, as no Grandfather rights to reinstall.
The recently extended track in South Wales, Carmarthen, (Heritage Line), were allowed, as it was already in place with track both sides, occasional operational and track used for storage, and not on a major route.

That's a horrendous idea and photo. So much infrastructure change required - there's not even a road from the Lidl car park (which is under construction in the photo), and where the only access out is will be right down the railway track! It had to come out on Vivis Lane as part of the original plans!

Would love to know where some of the existing properties are disappearing too (hairdressers, library, etc) - wouldn't surprise me if one at least is a listed building too.

 

[Harpers Tate]

To the best of my knowledge (and I did not create the picture) and comparing it to an early OS map, the faked route on it follows the original course of the railway pretty closely, so the probability of listed buildings being in the way is practically zero.

 

[Pinza-C55]

Not sure this is true. I thought the ORR had agreed to what are effectively 3 new level crossings (including one across an 'A' road) for the RVR/KESR connection project. I believe there are quite a few conditions attached but it's not actually impossible.

The rules about level crossings are/were in my opinion simply a knee jerk reaction to tabloid stories about accidents.
As you say the RVR are going to build 3 new crossings. You can read the full Planning Application here.
http://www.rvr.org.uk/planning_application.html

 

[E&W Lucas]

The rules about level crossings are/were in my opinion simply a knee jerk reaction to tabloid stories about accidents.
As you say the RVR are going to build 3 new crossings. You can read the full Planning Application here.
http://www.rvr.org.uk/planning_application.html

Great stuff if they can manage it. However, elsewhere, great lengths are being gone to to remove crossings from the network. Have a Google, and you may be able to find the plans for Helpston, etc. :cry:

To answer some of the other points made:

Pickering - forget listing, think the cost of demolishing supermarkets. That's without re - planning the town centre traffic system.

Doubling the NYMR. Goathland to Pickering is an objective of the latest corporate plan, see the website. There are a lot of things more urgently needed, to deliver the present timetable. Proper loco facilities at Pickering, and covered coach storage to protect the vast investment already made in rolling stock, for a start.

Doubling the entire route is impossible. The shed sits on the Up formation at Grosmont, the Down side of the formation at Beckhole (Gros - Goat) failed in a landslip in 1986, and the only coach storage at Pickering is on the former Down line. That is without considering bridges that have been renewed as single span vice double.

Please also take the trouble to read up on the capacity limitations of the Esk Valley line, which has been explained at length on this forum previously.

 

[markindurham]

It's all academic now, folks. From some postings on the Book of Face, the proponents of this madcap scheme have finally realised that they haven't got a snowball's chance in Hades of succeeding and have given up. Needless to say, according to them it's all the NYMR's fault for not accepting being taken over...

 

[E&W Lucas]

It always was nothing more than a hot air exercise!

In about two years time, some other bright spark will have the "new" idea of reopening the Rillingoton link. This will probably coincide with a council election, or some other opportunity for attention seeking. Please just read back over this thread when they do.....

 

[Standard 4MT]

It's all academic now, folks. From some postings on the Book of Face, the proponents of this madcap scheme have finally realised that they haven't got a snowball's chance in Hades of succeeding and have given up. Needless to say, according to them it's all the NYMR's fault for not accepting being taken over...

Yes the Facebook Group are closing, the Labs are no longer being built in Whitby, suggestion is now Scotland, the attempted takeover of the NYMR isn't happening and the Rillington to Pickering and Whitby is finished with to.
Of course the NYMR and the Group Improving Whitby Rail Links are to blame for this going away, and Mr Kipling also gets some blame to. Not the ludicrous idea to start with, or the non proof of any plans or monies etc. SBC not knowing anything about the plans appeared irrelevant. But I'm pleased this is over now, and efforts can now be put towards improving the Esk Valley line. Thanks to those that helped defend the NYMR and it not being taken over and destroyed as a Heritage railway. Not that it would ever happen, who was going to put through such a stupidly thought out scheme? In the future I hope Rillington to Pickering section can be reopened, without damaging the NYMR.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Mr Kipling also gets some blame too.

Perhaps he should stick to "baking exceedingly good cakes"....if my memory serves me right...

 

[DaleCooper]

Mr Kipling also gets some blame to.

Someone asked me what I thought of Kipling, I said "I don't know, I've never Kipled".

 

[crispy1978]

The only way I could ever see a line from Whitby to Malton working would be via a reverse at Pickering and then probably bending East and crossing the A169 Whitby Road and A170 between Pickering and Thornton Dale before heading down towards Rillington.

It's a moot point anyway as I'll never see it happening - but that's the only way I could ever envisage it working - whether there is actually space at Pickering to facilitate that I don't know either but it's the only one I can think of.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The only way I could ever see a line from Whitby to Malton working would be via a reverse at Pickering and then probably bending East and crossing the A169 Whitby Road and A170 between Pickering and Thornton Dale before heading down towards Rillington.

It's a moot point anyway as I'll never see it happening - but that's the only way I could ever envisage it working - whether there is actually space at Pickering to facilitate that I don't know either but it's the only one I can think of.

It's really strange seeing your thoughts here, as I have sometimes also thought, like you, about doing Malton/Pickering/Whitby, with a reversal at Pickering, I suppose technically it could be possible/feasible, but as you say, unlikely.

I am going up there next week all being well and should see the new layout at Whitby Station, as it's been 2 or 3 years since I last was there. Hope they will be running steam, last time there seemed to be more diesels working.

 

[Ploughman]

In the original land plans for the line from Kirbymoorside to Pickering the route was planned out as approaching from the west but further north than it did and running into the station from the North thus giving the prospect of through running from Kirbymoorside to Scarborough using the Forge valley line without reversal.
However Kirbymoorside would lose the chance of through running to Whitby if this ever was a feature of the timetable.

 

[crispy1978]

It's really strange seeing your thoughts here, as I have sometimes also thought, like you, about doing Malton/Pickering/Whitby, with a reversal at Pickering, I suppose technically it could be possible/feasible, but as you say, unlikely.

I am going up there next week all being well and should see the new layout at Whitby Station, as it's been 2 or 3 years since I last was there. Hope they will be running steam, last time there seemed to be more diesels working.

I don't see the connection being made in the next generation minimum personally - but that's the only way I'd ever see it working is by using Pickering as a reversal. Whether Pickering would need extra platforms I'm not sure.