NYMR Whitby

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MML

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I've noticed NYMR services to/from Whitby seem to be operated by Class 25 diesel, changing to Steam traction at Grosmont. The only steam engine which visits Whitby is the Southern No.825.
Is there a reason for the continual swopping of traction from diesel to steam and vice versa at Grosmont?
Are the other steam locos prohibited from using the Network Rail track?
 
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John Webb

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I'm not too certain. Ian Riley's 'Black Five' 44871 was driven there from Carnforth, so that must be approved for use on NR metals.

I wonder if there's some other factor (water not available at Whitby, perhaps?) which is needing the use of the diesel.
 

JonathanH

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The steam locomotives (and coaches) used between Grosmont and Whitby have to satisfy different standards and be registered for use on the mainline railway (although that may be limited to Grosmont to Whitby in some cases).

There are many other engines apart from 825 based on the NYMR which can go to Whitby - the disconnect seems to be between the locomotives currently in steam and those which can go to Whitby. 92134 and 80136 in use today don't appear to be passed.
 
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STEVIEBOY1

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I have been on the NYMR several times, it seems to vary about what happens on the Whitby section, I have also been on it when it's been steam to/from Whitby, changing locos at Grosmont, either to another steamer to/from Pickering or sometimes infact steam on the Whitby part and diesel on the Grosmont/Pickering section. I seem to remember one time they changed locos at Aidensfield/Goathland.
 

John Webb

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Is the speed limit still 25mph to Whitby on the Network Rail owned track?
No. That's why the locos and coaches have to be acceptable to NR for running at the higher speed than they run at on the NYMR's own track.

A look on 'YouTube' will bring up several 'Route Learning' videos from the NYMR both for their own line and between Grosmont, Battersby and Whitby which give interesting information on the speed limits.
 

Iskra

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37E2C1C5-A29C-4A10-B5A4-3D1B9E482240.jpeg
This was May. I’ve had two different black 5’s and 825 to Whitby.

It’s about which locomotives are mainline registered.

If it’s diesel at the moment it could be due to fire risk with the heat?
 

John Webb

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.....If it’s diesel at the moment it could be due to fire risk with the heat?
Or is it to give the steam footplate crews a break from both the natural heat and the loco heat? They take about an hour from Pickering to Grosmont - must be quite warm work!
 

John Webb

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Possibly, but when I was there, 825 sat in Whitby for over an hour.
825, being an older loco (1927 or thereabouts) has a rather more open cab than the later 'Black 5s' (1934 onwards). so perhaps that's why they use that on the first through train.

By the way, the action at Grosmont station and at the top of the 1 in 49 coming into Goathland is easily seen on the NYMR Webcams which are freely available and with the past 12 hours playable as well. Bottom right of the page is a list of locos to be used that day and a downloadable schedule of which loco is assigned to which service.
 

Ryry

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Also depending on which loco was used on the Pickering to grosmont depending on the change
Believe the black 5
825 repton
B7 can all run to Whitby

Historically 80135 ran to Whitby so 80136 once it's had it network rail approvements met it should run fine
 

MML

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Indeed Black 5 No 44871 has joined 825 on the runs to Whitby today. It would appear as previously commented that not all locos are approved for Network Rail use and therefore sometimes require the change of loco at Grosmont.
I was wondering whether NYMR could utilise the heritage DMU on some runs between Whitby and Battersby. The Northern services are infrequent and could be enhanced with 2 or 3 roundtrip for tourists. I'm not sure how easy it would be to inter work with the existing Northern timetable which is focused on the school runs.
 

zwk500

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Indeed Black 5 No 44871 has joined 825 on the runs to Whitby today. It would appear as previously commented that not all locos are approved for Network Rail use and therefore sometimes require the change of loco at Grosmont.
Yes, NYMR locos running over NR need GSMR & on-train monitoring equipment. I don't know if AWS or TPWS is fitted on the Whitby branch, but if it is they will also need that. Some locos are cleared for Whitby-Battersby only, while others are cleared for the wider network (subject to gauge clearance).
I was wondering whether NYMR could utilise the heritage DMU on some runs between Whitby and Battersby. The Northern services are infrequent and could be enhanced with 2 or 3 roundtrip for tourists. I'm not sure how easy it would be to inter work with the existing Northern timetable which is focused on the school runs.
It's quite difficult, as Grosmont does not split the token section (I think from Glaisdale), so NYMR trains have to wait until the Northern train has gone all the way to the end of the token section before starting, even if heading in the opposite direction.
 

The Bear

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From memory......

NYMR's locos & stock that's registered for use on NR are only passed for use between Battersby & Whitby, are passed for 45mph, are fitted with TPWS but were exempt from OTMR.
Not sure about GSM-R?
Locos such as;
(98479) 76079
(98526) 926 Repton
(98528) 5428 Eric Treacy
(98625) 825
25278

Third party fully mainline registered locos which the NYMR have used like;
(98564) B1 61264
(98571) Black5 44871
(98605) K1 62005
Have everything fitted (TPWS, GSM-R & OTMR etc) so no issue with them being used.

9F's are banned from the 'mainline' and have been for quite some years because of their flangeless centre driving wheel.

The Esk Valley line does have TPWS.
The non-signaller key token instruments, once the driver has withdrawn the token it deactivates the TPWS grids for 5mins to allow the train to depart. Much in the same way RETB now works.


Correct....
Unlike RETB with its intermediate sections/stop boards & long section tokens the Esk Valley line's non-signaller key-token system isn't designed for that.
The Battersby-Glaisdale token can't be released from the Gromont intermediate token-instrument to the crew of a NYMR train until whatever it is has cleared the section and relinquished the token.
 

zwk500

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From memory......

NYMR's locos & stock that's registered for use on NR are only passed for use between Battersby & Whitby, are passed for 45mph, are fitted with TPWS but were exempt from OTMR.
Not sure about GSM-R?
Cheers for this, I knew there were different rules but wasn't sure what they were.
The Esk Valley line does have TPWS.
The non-signaller key token instruments, once the driver has withdrawn the token it deactivates the TPWS grids for 5mins to allow the train to depart. Much in the same way RETB now works.
Interesting, thanks!
Correct....
Unlike RETB with its intermediate sections/stop boards & long section tokens the Esk Valley line's non-signaller key-token system isn't designed for that.
The Battersby-Glaisdale token can't be released from the Gromont intermediate token-instrument to the crew of a NYMR train until whatever it is has cleared the section and relinquished the token.
It's a problem that gets brought up regularly, but nobody seems to ever have the money to solve it.
 

The Bear

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It's a problem that gets brought up regularly, but nobody seems to ever have the money to solve it.
The Esk Valley line's non-signaller key-token system isn't as flexible as RETB (which it predates).
I would say that the only way of putting an intermediate section into the Battersby-Glaisdale section would probably involve installing more token instruments, stop boards & TPWS equipment at Gromont (which doesn't have a passing loop on the NR side) which would involve another time consuming token exchange for Northern's services which wouldn't be desirable, would bring little benefits & add operational complications.

Alternative systems for the line......
NR probably won't go down the RETB route as it's already an old system which in some areas has already been replaced.
If ECTS is introduced its game over for steam (as per the situation on the Cambrian).

Probably best left alone me thinks.......
 

alexl92

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As others have said, only certain locos are certified to run on the mainline between Whitby & Battersby.

There were briefly rumours (probably wibble) that the railway might apply for an exemption for the 9F to operate to Whitby but apparently one of the curves into Whitby is too tight for the 9F's wheelbase. I can't remember if I heard that 34101 Hartland won't be certified either; might be mistaken there though.

Of their entire fleet, (operational and not), I think it's soemthing like this - but don't take this as gospel. Where locos are currently undergoing maintenance (rather than a full overhaul/restoration) I haven't mentioned that.

Whitby certified
825
926
44806 (under overhaul)
44871 (guest)
(4)5428
60007 (under overhaul; though this will now be primarily based at Crewe as part of the LSL main line fleet)
(6)1264
62005 (owned by NELPG) (currently in Scotland on Jacobite services)
76079
80135 (under overhaul)


NYMR only
5 (under overhaul)
29
Lucie
3672 (under overhaul)
63395 (2238) (NELPG)
65894 (NELPG)
80136
92134


Not sure about 34101 and 75029. Hoepfully someone else can help!
 

paul1609

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I believe it's 30 between Grosmont and Whitby.
I think that the nymrs mk 1 coaches are only allowed to exceed 25 mph with secondary door locks (bolts) in use manned by door stewards like charter trains. In reality the increase to 30 mph on the route to Whitby isnt worth the hassle so they are timetabled to operate at 25 mph.
 

Sean Emmett

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From memory......

NYMR's locos & stock that's registered for use on NR are only passed for use between Battersby & Whitby, are passed for 45mph, are fitted with TPWS but were exempt from OTMR.
Not sure about GSM-R?
Locos such as;
(98479) 76079
(98526) 926 Repton
(98528) 5428 Eric Treacy
(98625) 825
25278

Third party fully mainline registered locos which the NYMR have used like;
(98564) B1 61264
(98571) Black5 44871
(98605) K1 62005
Have everything fitted (TPWS, GSM-R & OTMR etc) so no issue with them being used.

9F's are banned from the 'mainline' and have been for quite some years because of their flangeless centre driving wheel.

The Esk Valley line does have TPWS.
The non-signaller key token instruments, once the driver has withdrawn the token it deactivates the TPWS grids for 5mins to allow the train to depart. Much in the same way RETB now works.


Correct....
Unlike RETB with its intermediate sections/stop boards & long section tokens the Esk Valley line's non-signaller key-token system isn't designed for that.
The Battersby-Glaisdale token can't be released from the Gromont intermediate token-instrument to the crew of a NYMR train until whatever it is has cleared the section and relinquished the token.
Thanks for this. I referred to NYMR when posting re possible heritage operation on NR tracks Okehampton - Meldon, requirements short of full main line certification etc; but couldn't find the detail.
 

The Lad

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I don't think 60007 will go to Whitby again due to curvature.
Sections are Battersby-Glaisdale and Glaisdale-Whitby which has an intermediate token station at Grosmont. This only releases the Glaisdale-Whitby token. TPWS is only provided in platform 1 at Whitby, since all trains for Platform 2 have to stop to change the points.
The plan seems to be for steam to be used to Whitby but sometimes a loco exam is required for a Pickering based loco which takes place ATM whilst the last train goes to/from Whitby so the loco can take the train back to Pickering.
All locos have GSMR or carry a portable kit
Pox has changed things a little.
 
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MML

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I have to say I would enjoy travelling behind the Class 25 and Class 37 just as much as one of the Steam locomotives. But the general public probably need a little more re education as they focus on the steam rather than heritage diesel.
Would it be costly to split the section at Grosmont using the existing token equipment? It would allow NYMR access as soon as the Northern DMU reaches Grosmont and could allow the token to be released in platform rather than stopping just north of Grosmont.
If NYMR could use the heritage DMU to enhance the Esk Valley service, it would help bring day trip tourists from Whitby to some of the delightful villages. Danby and Lealholm have some superb pubs and tea rooms.
 

30907

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I have to say I would enjoy travelling behind the Class 25 and Class 37 just as much as one of the Steam locomotives. But the general public probably need a little more re education as they focus on the steam rather than heritage diesel.
Would it be costly to split the section at Grosmont using the existing token equipment? It would allow NYMR access as soon as the Northern DMU reaches Grosmont and could allow the token to be released in platform rather than stopping just north of Grosmont.
Post #17 above refers. I'm not sure it would make a huge difference to the service that NYMR could offer.
If NYMR could use the heritage DMU to enhance the Esk Valley service, it would help bring day trip tourists from Whitby to some of the delightful villages. Danby and Lealholm have some superb pubs and tea rooms.
They do, and it's an intriguing use for the DMU, but the Esk Valley could do with an extra daytime train or two anyway which might increase the opoortunities from Whitby.
 

EbbwJunction1

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In September 2019, I travelled behind (4)5428 and (6)1264, and saw 76079; all of these travelled the whole route and didn't come off their respective trains.
 

alexl92

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In September 2019, I travelled behind (4)5428 and (6)1264, and saw 76079; all of these travelled the whole route and didn't come off their respective trains.
I understand that in most cases the NYMR will try to roster a Whitby loco to run the whole of a Pickering - Whitby - Pickering diagram, but sometimes if this isn't possible they may operate another steam engine between Pickering - Grosmont and then use the diesel to take over to Whitby & back.

Last time I was there, which I think was Autumn 2018, 76079 brought us up from Whitby to Grosmont on the last journey back from Whitby, and was then due to be replaced by (6)1264 at Grosmont as '79 needed to go for a quick check up (the one they have to do every so many miles of service).

1264 was supposed to have arrived at Grosmont before us, having hauled the last Pickering - Grosmont service of the day. However, it was delayed and arrived after our train, so couldn't run around (both lines being occupied by a train). In the end, we waited around 20 minutes and then '79 returned to finish the journey.

In fairness, having '79 on was a bonus anyway because I'm pretty sure that the 17.20 (or thereabouts) ex-Whitby was, at the time, diagrammed for the Class 25. I don't mind that, but having been hauled by the 25 on the way out, I was desperately hoping for a steam loco on the way back so definitely a happy customer! 76079 did seem to struggle on the uphill section between Whitby and Grosmont tho. We were basically at walking pace at one point - think we may even have stopped once or twice.
 

D6130

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76079 did seem to struggle on the uphill section between Whitby and Grosmont tho.
Do you mean the uphill section between Grosmont and Goathland? Despite the sharp curvature following the river, the gradients between Whitby and Grosmont are very gentle.
 

alexl92

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Do you mean the uphill section between Grosmont and Goathland? Despite the sharp curvature following the river, the gradients between Whitby and Grosmont are very gentle.
I'm sure it was out of Whitby towards Grosmont because it was still fairly light at that point. By the time we were heading downhill from Goathland towards Pickering, it was getting pretty dark outside. Maybe the loco was just particularly short of steam or the rails were particularly slippy, I'm not sure.
 
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