Obama unveils high-speed rail plan

[Royston Vasey]

CNN reports that Obama has unveiled TEN potential high speed rail lines for the US (if only we had the luxury of that much space!) An effort to get people out of the air and off the roads, and of course as part of the economic stimulus package. They are speculating about who might run them.

If SNCF were a private company I'd give it to them straight away. What price Virgin put a bid in?

Plenty of images of the French system on the TV bulletins; they're treating TGVs as if they're revolutionary technology (!!) Interesting that they showed the European high speed rail map as including the ECML and WCML!!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/obama.rail/

 

[monkey]

If SNCF were a private company I'd give it to them straight away. What price Virgin put a bid in?

...oh god, I can see mr. branson's eyes with dollar signs right now, rubbing his hands with a glee, plotting a publicity stunt already...

 

[Royston Vasey]

Just read this in the report:

His plan would be funded in part through the recently passed $787 billion stimulus plan, which includes a total of $8 billion for improvements in rail service. Obama has also proposed a separate five-year, $5 billion investment in high-speed rail as part of the administration's suggested fiscal year 2010 budget.

He can multiply that by 10!!

 

[jopsuk]

Whilst they wouldn't fir some conventional definitions of "High speed" railways (think 140mph is more usually the marker?) and the US does have a faster rail line (I belive the Acela Express can do 150mph on some sections?), the ECML and WCML are a lot faster than most US railways- though clearly the GWML should be included too.

 

[Shinkansenfan]

Alas, 8 US Billion dollars is but a drop in the proverbial bucket, and will be insufficient to fund 10 corridors to true high speed rail (150+ MPH), let alone 2 or 3 corridors.

The "high speed lines" under discussion mostly involve upgrading conventional freight lines to 90+ MPH, as oppposed to a completely new system-- although California is proposing a set of completely new high speed lines.

Amtrak's Acela trainset do indeed attain a top speed of 150 MPH, but only hold that speed for less than 30 miles in Rhode Island!

 

[williamn]

Amtrak must be pinching themselves after being starved of investment for so long! Good for Obama.

 

[Dai.]

When I heard high speed america four companies came to mind:

National Express
Virgin
Arriva
First

I think those four are going to be trying to get into america on the rails.

 

[monkey]

...just as a side note, does anyone know if the acella express trains are emu/dmu's or locohauled? I know that the they have power cars at either end with no passenger seating...

 

[jopsuk]

I think much like the TGVs (on which the power cars but not the passenger cars are based) the answer is "somewhere in between". I think they effectively operate as MUs, but with power cars/locos that can be easily separated and swapped (a bit like HSTs as well- thus the whole, never ending, debate over whether they're MUs or loco-hauled- there is no definitive answer). The traditional distinction does not work with these sorts of sets.

 

[Shinkansenfan]

i consider them locomotive hauled, but topped and tailed with power cars at both ends in a rather inflexible fixed formation trainset. Akin to the German ICE 1 trainsets.

 

[Yank 119]

Whilst they wouldn't fir some conventional definitions of "High speed" railways (think 140mph is more usually the marker?) and the US does have a faster rail line (I belive the Acela Express can do 150mph on some sections?), the ECML and WCML are a lot faster than most US railways- though clearly the GWML should be included too.

That is quite correct. The densely populated Northeast Corridor is a little over half the length of the WCML. Normal speeds between Washington and New York for Acela and some Regional trains are 125 mph, much like the British lines described above. There is also the electrified Keystone Corridor in Pennsylvania which was recently rehabilitated to handle speeds of 110 mph. Look for more of this type of thing from the stimulus package.

These lines are the exception, rather than the rule, as it's really the only electrified main line railroad in the United States. Elsewhere the diesel trains are limited to 79 mph, with some lines capable of 90 mph running. The General Electric P42DC is capable of 110 mph, we just need the proper systems to make running at such speed safe to operate around mile-long freight trains.

This is really an interim measure until funding for proper newly built 200+mph corridors can be appropriated. The California HSR plan includes sharing both existing rights of way and constructing new rights of way. This will probably become the standard for future undertakings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Corridor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Corridor

 

[bluemeansgo]

This $8B was for one reason... and one reason only... to get people thinking and planning.

When you wave a carrot everyone races. But there are only 3 medals to win. When the losers are announced, the prez then has the people to back him.

Here, I'll write the statement ( To be read in Obama "rousing speech voice" ):

"Given the response from the small stimulus package, it is obvious that my fellow Americans share our vision of a Nation reunited on ribbons of modern, efficient high speed rail. [ Insert details of proposals here ]. They share the passion to be leaders, innovators in this field, and despite all the difficulties we may face, despite the size of this monumental project, they share the attitude that this is not only possible, but something that we MUST do. They have all studied in school how the Nation was once united with ribbons of steel.

Now, some may say things have changed. There will be those that will fight against this effort. However, we shall say to them that YES, things have changed. Our nation's most important resources are not the things travelling on freight corridors, they are our people. And our people deserve a better system.

So, in response, the government has approved a second stimulus to make sure that more of these projects actually get done...."



etc. etc. etc.

 

[poshbakerloo]

Amtrak's Acela trainset do indeed attain a top speed of 150 MPH, but only hold that speed for less than 30 miles in Rhode Island!

The average speed for the whole route is only 70mph :roll:

 

[Philfrance]

Alsthom has developed something better than the TGV called the AGV. They've already sold 25 multiple units to the italian new-born NTV company.

The main difference between the AGV and the TGV is there's more passenger seating space, due to the fact that all coaches are motorised below the floor space (instead of the actual fore and aft "locos" in which you can't seat anybody except the crewmen).

For the same length of train and the same speeds, they've managed to gain nearly 25 % seating space and 15 % in electromechanical efficiency (the AGV motors and power supply chains were those mounted on the record breaking TGV in 2007).

I also believe SNCF is going to replace their first generation TGV's with AGV's in the next decade.

 

[jopsuk]

It's hardly as if the configuration of the AGV is a revolution in terms of high-speed train design- all Shinkansen have been configured with distributed power and seating in the driving cars since inception. and Siemens have been making the ICE3/Velaro for a good few years, not mention some of the various Pendolinos which fall into the true "High Speed" category. Any idea what's happened with the plan to remove a "loco" from one end of Duplex sets, replace the bogie under the now exposed end of the carriage rake with an AGV bogie and run them in semi-permanent double formation?

 

[Philfrance]

The problem in France is the length of platforms... As RFF (Réseaux ferrés de France) proprietor of infrastructure hasn't decided to make any of them much longer than a 7 or 14 coach TGV, there's no reason why SNCF should ask for such a modification to their trains (this is also why SNCF ordered two-stage TGV's).

Most of the TGV stations are in the centre of town, so it's quite understandable that RFF haven't yet taken such a decision.

As for ICE, if you understand german, DB are "slightly" dissapointed by heavy maintenance costs, which, in comparison with Alsthom's techniques, seem to be twice the cost, for a train which doesn't embark as many passengers nor run as fast a TGV (remember also the latest financial scandals within the Siemens group)

As for pendular trains, even Alsthom has produced a pendular TGV, but it's mathematically impossible to get that sort of train doing the same thing as on a high speed track... SNCF worked on that project as early as 1973... I too remember the famous HST adventure when I was a kid in the UK... but I've also seen other "bad" examples in Europe...

There's no news on Alsthom or SNCF websites (even in french) about getting rid of two useless "locos" in duplex formation.

But the cost to recable a hundred trains would be enormous just to gain 40 odd meters in a station...

 

[peradon]

I dont think that European companies will really bother with this idea like some people are saying. It seems much more likely to have strong American railroads investing-if companies like First or Arriva were going to try and expand to America, I think they would have already done so. After all, there are already high speed routes in places like Texas and nobody seemed to care.

 

[Philfrance]

It's not so much European train operators who'll be interested because recent changes to market regulations in Europe are going to push them all through a couple of rough quarters in the next following years, although SNCF, Virgin or DB could take an interest in a joint venture with existing US operators (like SNCF with Italy).

But surely train constructors such as Bombardier, Alsthom, Siemens, Vossloh will be likely to make a couple of proposals.

As for track building contractors, european know how could be a good asset only if the americans are going to build from scratch. This hasn't yet been clearly underlined in O'Bama's statements...

But even then, it wouldn't help US contractors if europeans got a piece of the cake. Wait and see...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's not just the train which should be considered as revolutionary... It's the whole system, even though the Japanese were the first to create specific lines for HST's.

What's really revolutionary about the TGV is the low cost to build it and to run it (electricity, maintenance).

The real trouble with the TGV in France, is the fact there's no way to travel West to East without going through Paris if you live south of the river Loire. The actual lines have been developed as if France was still in the 1860's ! I live near Dijon, and I can't get to Bordeaux without going through Paris, unless I'm prepared to spend 14 or 15 hours in 5 or 6 different trains and stations.

That would really be a revolutionary happening !