Obliged to use cycle storage?

[BurtonM]

This is something my experiences today have made me wonder about.

I frequently travel between Stalybridge and stations in the Manchester group with a full sized bicycle. But am I under any obligation to use the designated areas for bike storage? Northern trains are mostly okay but the section on the ex-London Midland 150s isn't actually big enough to properly house a bike for one, nor is there any indication of cycle storage inside the train.

My main query lies with TPE and the 185s. I boarded today at Manchester Piccadilly (after the unpleasant surprise of the driver using the horn in the platform mere feet from passengers, and shortly after somebody walking into my bike :roll: ) and got into the end of the train with the disabled toilet. I'm happy to move if a disabled person needs the space but I rarely find this to be the case. The guard then asked me where I was getting off to which I replied Stalybridge. His response was 'you shouldn't have that at this end'. I shrugged and replied 'well, someone's probably sitting in the cycle storage' but he'd lost interest by this point. I suspect if I was going any further than Stalybridge that the guard would have asked me to move.

I prefer to use the disabled toilet end of TPE trains for my bike, as it's usually rather empty and there's plenty of space.
-It's easier to access and there's much more space to move a bike around.
-I invariably find a bike, if not two, are in the designated space, which just isn't big enough. Failing that, it will have a pram or luggage in it, or someone will be sitting there. A bike and a pram, or two bikes, plus my own, is enough to cause something of an obstruction.
-TPE trains can point in either direction and I don't want to have to walk the full length of the train against a flow of passengers getting off if I pick the wrong end.

 

[455driver]

Yes you are, if you refuse then the guard can refuse to carry the bike.
Any bike is carried at the guards discretion.

The disabled toilet end is a wheelchair space, not a bike space.

 

[GM228]

Yes you are, if you refuse then the guard can refuse to carry the bike.
Any bike is carried at the guards discretion.

The disabled toilet end is a wheelchair space, not a bike space.

I concur, covered under the conditions of carriage I believe.

 

[Darandio]

-TPE trains can point in either direction and I don't want to have to walk the full length of the train against a flow of passengers getting off if I pick the wrong end.

Them's the breaks.

Passengers with reservations may well have to do this, what makes you such a special case?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes you are, if you refuse then the guard can refuse to carry the bike.
Any bike is carried at the guards discretion.

The disabled toilet end is a wheelchair space, not a bike space.

This argument is entirely valid and upholds the rules... However, my own experience of using TPE services is that the bike storage area in the centre car is almost always full of suitcases, despite there being an empty luggage rack directly opposite. It is this reason that means I'm reluctant to actually take my bike on my trips to Huddersfield. Insisting on cyclists using the allocated space also requires insistence on other passengers storing their luggage appropriately.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The fact that the cycle space on the 185s also has tip up seats in it is the worst bit. Persuading people to move is always a challenge. More than once I've had to wedge the bike by the doors when they won't.

 

[455driver]

The fact that the cycle space on the 185s also has tip up seats

one of my pet hates, its a bloomin cycle space so keep the bloody passengers out of it!

 

[yorkie]

... 'well, someone's probably sitting in the cycle storage'...

Ask them nicely if they can move. If they refuse, point out the sign to them, if they still refuse obtain assistance from the Guard.

I once had a group of passengers initially reluctant to move (despite seats being available elsewhere) however when they realised where I'd cycled from, where I was going to, and what football team I had been supporting, they were more than happy to move to accommodate my bike

 

[BurtonM]

Always bugs me when someone's sitting there. The seats cause a lot of trouble as as well as the seats themselves taking up valuable space, I don't want to annoy people by asking them to move and possibly having to get the guard for a 15 minute journey: it'll make me look like a bit of a jobsworth (not to mention I have social anxiety problems so I have difficulty interacting with people anyway), when I'm only going one stop to Stalybridge. I'm also reluctant to move other people's unattended luggage as you never know what could happen or what it's worth.
I've never read NRCoC but I've had a look:

48. Cycles
Train Companies allow cycles to be conveyed by train with the exception of a few routes.
However, restrictions may apply at particular times of day and/or days of the week. A
charge may be made for conveying a cycle and a reservation may be required. The Ticket
Seller must tell you about these restrictions and any charges if you ask when buying
your ticket.
49. Restrictions
Any Train Company may refuse to accept an item of luggage, an article, an animal or a
cycle, even though it meets the requirements set out in Condition 47 and 48 and Appendix
B, if, in the opinion of its staff:
(a) it may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance or it may cause damage to
property;
(b) there is not enough room for it;
(c) the loading or unloading may cause delay to trains; or
(d) it is not carried or packaged in a suitable manner.

Nothing in there about designated cycle areas, but TPE's website says that's the only place you can use. Badly publicised IMO.

If Northern can combine cycle/wheelchair areas...

Might ping an email off to TPE giving them some constructive criticism of the bike storage and see how much scripted rubbish I get back.

 

[marks87]

Any bike is carried at the guards discretion.

Does that include bikes with reservations? I was under the impression that if you have a cycle reservation but the bike cannot be conveyed on the specified service, the TOC was obliged to get you to your destination (whether that be on the next service or otherwise).

On ScotRail 170s, the biggest problem is luggage in the cycle storage area. And I'm anticipating having such an issue on Sunday. I've got a cycle reservation on a service from Haymarket but this is the weekend when students arrive at Dundee and St Andrews universities. This time last year, I only just got my bike on but still had to have luggage surrounding it. The guard wasn't interested so I was left to sort myself out.

Needless to say, it was fun when the catering trolley wanted through.

In some ways, I can sympathise because the 170s aren't designed for large luggage in volume. But at the same time, it's not my fault and I can't exactly change the dates of the event I'm taking part in.

 

[satisnek]

The worst case I've seen is the 350s on Northampton line services, where the wheelchair/bike space is occupied by stupid people sitting there for the sake of it, rather than walking to the end of the train, which is where I sit when I don't have my bike with me. (Tip: on Birmingham-Euston LM services go for the rear coach, where you can sit and smirk at the announcements apologising for overcrowding, etc.!).

I much prefer stock with '⅓ and ⅔' door spacing when travelling with my bike - on my local line it's a simple matter of putting it on the 'six foot' side and it's out of everyone's way, on other routes it's a case of 'keeping your eye on the ball' (or having route knowledge) and moving it to the other side where necessary. Apart from one occasion back in Central Trains/Class 150 days when the guard instructed me to go to the bike/wheelchair/parcels area at the other end of the train I've never had any problems.

 

[LowLevel]

Does that include bikes with reservations? I was under the impression that if you have a cycle reservation but the bike cannot be conveyed on the specified service, the TOC was obliged to get you to your destination (whether that be on the next service or otherwise).

On ScotRail 170s, the biggest problem is luggage in the cycle storage area. And I'm anticipating having such an issue on Sunday. I've got a cycle reservation on a service from Haymarket but this is the weekend when students arrive at Dundee and St Andrews universities. This time last year, I only just got my bike on but still had to have luggage surrounding it. The guard wasn't interested so I was left to sort myself out.

Needless to say, it was fun when the catering trolley wanted through.

In some ways, I can sympathise because the 170s aren't designed for large luggage in volume. But at the same time, it's not my fault and I can't exactly change the dates of the event I'm taking part in.

No - for cycle reservations it doesn't work that way. There's a specific exclusion that notwithstanding reservations the bike can still refused access to the train, the difference being you're entitled to compensation. Much the same as reservation holders can also be declined access to the train if it's full, the guard can cancel the reservations for the service. The railway is still carrying your oversized personal belonging for you without charging for it.

The mandate to use the cycle space is actually covered by the railway byelaws, rather than the NRCoC specifically - 14(2) applies. Excuse me not quoting but I'm on a phone handset and struggle to avoid highlighting whole documents!

 

[Bantamzen]

One of my pet hates is tripping over people's bikes discarded on busy trains because the owner has chosen not to use the allocated spaces. Yes on 185s, the spaces in coach C might be nicer for bikes, but that is not what they are for. And yes, the proper spaces are often filled with suitcases / prams etc, but that's what comes with a busy and low capacity service. But what would you do if two or three disabled people boarded after you had taken their spaces? OK, it's an unlikely scenario, but it could happen. At the end of the day there are rules in place for taking your bikes onto trains, and they should be adhered to. People should always get priority over bikes, something sadly some cyclists seem to forget.

 

[ComUtoR]

What if I buy it a ticket ?

 

[yorkie]

People should always get priority over bikes, something sadly some cyclists seem to forget.

Not quite true; bikes have priority in the designated area and the signs make this clear.

Bikes shouldn't be elsewhere though and I don't understand why there was a discussion with the Guard; the OP should have accepted what he was told.

It's a very simple, straightforward matter really.

 

[Bantamzen]

Not quite true; bikes have priority in the designated area and the signs make this clear.

Bikes shouldn't be elsewhere though and I don't understand why there was a discussion with the Guard; the OP should have accepted what he was told.

It's a very simple, straightforward matter really.

I agree with the latter, although personally I would argue that if there are tip up seats in the designated bike area and the train is full then paying passengers really ought to have priority.

 

[Bertie the bus]

-TPE trains can point in either direction and I don't want to have to walk the full length of the train against a flow of passengers getting off if I pick the wrong end.

If you’re fit and healthy enough to cycle then you’re fit and healthy enough to push your bike 40 metres along a platform to the correct part of the train in a reasonable time. If people happen to be standing where the 1st Class section stops does that entitle them to travel 1st Class?

Your entire post is about what you want and what is easier for you and is why non-foldable cycles should be banned on trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

Your entire post is about what you want and what is easier for you and is why non-foldable cycles should be banned on trains.

What if its a gift for friend ?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Could the 185s have identifying marks on the ends to denote cycle storage, similar to the black triangles Thumpers back in the day?

What if its a gift for friend ?

What if you're carrying a bike and a bottle of wine, both for a friend, on an overcrowded short-formed train with an alcohol ban?

 

[ComUtoR]

The alcohol ban I can answer

I believe that when they ban alcohol on trains it is for open bottles etc and its consumption but not banning the carrying of it.

Many many moons ago I heard that they way round cycle bans was to wrap it and add a bow. If your transporting it as a gift then how can that be banned ? I've seen many weird and wonderful objects being carried on overcrowded trains. The point was made with luggage and I would say that luggage takes up more space and can be more of a problem than a bike.

 

[BestWestern]

If people happen to be standing where the 1st Class section stops does that entitle them to travel 1st Class?

Only if they're going to Reading...

I do sympathise with cycle users attempting to travel on multiple units, it is often a complete lottery. Tip-up seats in cycle areas are on the face of it a sensible idea, but of course in reality they do cause issues. Time and again you see people sat in them, ignorantly minding their own business while a cyclist blocks the adjacent doorway...

I do agree that perhaps non-folding cycles could be further restricted, particularly as it now appears you can acquire a folding mountain bike? TOCs need to do more though; a proper scheme whereby cycles could be hired from stations would be major boost. Just follow the Boris Bike model of automation and security.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Could the 185s have identifying marks on the ends to denote cycle storage, similar to the black triangles Thumpers back in the day?

Off to the naughty step this instant for coming up with such a sensible idea. You should know by now that common sense and railways are at completely the opposite ends of the spectrum.:roll:

 

[brompton rail]

Off to the naughty step this instant for coming up with such a sensible idea. You should know by now that common sense and railways are at completely the opposite ends of the spectrum.:roll:

Class 185 sets are marked with a yellow bar on the coupler. This denotes the First Class / Wheelchair areas are in that coach. The coach at the 'black' coupler end of the train conveys the cycle storage area. Similar to Virgin WC Voyagers and XC Voyagers, though in the XC case the cycle 'cupboard is now in the coach next to the 'black' coupler coach. In other words....
TPE, VWC, XC bike storage at opposite end to First Class.
VTEC, electric trains, bike storage at First Class End (southern end normally)
VTEC HSTs, bike storage at standard class end (northern end normally)
GWR HSTs bike storage similar to VTEC (tho western, country, end)

Clearly cyclists are not to be encouraged to travel First Class!(except on East Coast Mk4s)..

 

[BurtonM]

Not quite true; bikes have priority in the designated area and the signs make this clear.

Bikes shouldn't be elsewhere though and I don't understand why there was a discussion with the Guard; the OP should have accepted what he was told.

It's a very simple, straightforward matter really.

I did accept what I was told! The guard didn't ask me to move.

I don't think the point about restricting non-folding bikes is fair. Folding bikes are very expensive and many people, myself included neither want nor can afford one, preferring a conventional bike. I suspect any restriction on non-folding bicycles would only alienate cyclists.
I use my bike in conjunction with the train to save money on buses and get where trains can't - for leisure I often travel from my home in Stalybridge to a friend's in Chorlton at a cost of up to £3.90 depending on the time of day. Taking my bike on the train saves me about £4 in bus fares and time at both ends. If I couldn't take my bike on the train or had to pay for the luxury, it wouldn't be worth bothering.

Northern have no indication on their trains about who takes priority in a cycle storage area. This could be even more interesting on a train where disabled space and cycle space is a common area (do some Northern units have this?)
Also, don't items the size of cellos or larger on trains need a ticket? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

I wonder if a cello has ever been 'Penalty Faked' by Northern

 

[SeanG]

a folding mountain bike?

I challenge you to actually go mountain biking on it though without it breaking

 

[yorkie]

Northern signage is not good but in my experience most Gaurds are very good and will move people or other items if required.

As others have said, when using TPE look for the yellow bar on the coupler as the train pulls in and if there is no yellow bar you know you're at the right end. If there isn't, then you have time to get to the right end.

Maybe one day train formation and direction information will be part of the open data feed but that's a subject for another thread (and indeed has been). But until then at least you can get a headstart by observing the coupler bar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern signage is not good but in my experience most Gaurds are very good and will move people or other items if required.

As others have said, when using TPE look for the yellow bar on the coupler as the train pulls in and if there is no yellow bar you know you're at the right end. If there isn't, then you have time to get to the right end.

Maybe one day train formation and direction information will be part of the open data feed but that's a subject for another thread (and indeed has been). But until then at least you can get a headstart by observing the coupler bar.

 

[BestWestern]

...
TPE, VWC, XC bike storage at opposite end to First Class.
VTEC, electric trains, bike storage at First Class End (southern end normally)
VTEC HSTs, bike storage at standard class end (northern end normally)
GWR HSTs bike storage similar to VTEC (tho western, country, end)

Clearly cyclists are not to be encouraged to travel First Class!(except on East Coast Mk4s)..

So far as I'm aware, cyclists are just as entitled to travel in First Class as anybody else; their cycles however are expected to travel in the cycle area. The two don't need to be next to one another!

 

[TUC]

I prefer to use the disabled toilet end of TPE trains for my bike, as it's usually rather empty and there's plenty of space.

So, just to be clear, does this mean that someone in a wheelchair or with walking difficulties would have less space to get to the disabled persons toilet?

 

[EM2]

The mandate to use the cycle space is actually covered by the railway byelaws, rather than the NRCoC specifically - 14(2) applies. Excuse me not quoting but I'm on a phone handset and struggle to avoid highlighting whole documents!

Allow me:

14. Traffic signs, causing obstructions and parking
(1) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall
use it on any part of the railway in contravention of any traffic sign.
(2) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall
leave or place it on any part of the railway:
(i) in any manner or place where it may cause an
obstruction or hindrance to an Operator or any person using
the railway; or
(ii) otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or
on behalf of an Operator or an authorised person.

 

[bitmadmax]

Depends on the Guard.

If the cycle space is blocked, and if you're not blocking anyone or doing something unsafe/stupid, then they are pretty laid back about where you put yourself and your bike. I have even seen guards go out their way to accommodate several people with bikes on a packed service.

There is, though, one guard who I find quite unpleasant and clearly has a chip on their shoulder. I was moved from an empty vestibule end where I was standing out of the way with my bike (standing, incase a disabled pax got on at the next stop) This particular guard insists on moving a cyclist from an empty compartment to the rammed coach C where - you guessed it - people and prams in the cycle space. Not exactly safe. Although I appreciate the guard might not be aware how overcrowded a coach is.

It doesn't help that most people think the vestibule end of coach A is 1st class so don't bother using it.

All in all though, I rate TPE quite good in accommodating cyclists and (most) of their guards are sound.