Odd incident at Paddington

[ollyrogers]

Had an intriguing incident happen to me on the 28th November and would like to have my confusion cleared up if possible.

On the 28th, me and my girlfriend set off from Ealing Broadway to Southend Airport, buying open return tickets to the airport to return Monday 1st. This was about 9:30 in the morning and we were handed off-peak open returns from the office. These worked fine through Ealing's ticket barriers, however when we arrived at Paddington (around 9:45), the tickets wouldn't let us through the platform 12 gates to get the the H&C line. When we showed them to the inspector on the gate, she told us they were technically invalid as it was still peak time, but that she would let us through anyway.

I'd like to know what the situation would be if she hadn't been lenient, considering we'd been given those tickets at Ealing Broadway and thought nothing of it - would we have had grounds for any appeal (I'm guessing the situation could have escalated into a PF if we hadn't passed the 'attitude test')?

TIA

 

[Rich McLean]

Had an intriguing incident happen to me on the 28th November and would like to have my confusion cleared up if possible.

On the 28th, me and my girlfriend set off from Ealing Broadway to Southend Airport, buying open return tickets to the airport to return Monday 1st. This was about 9:30 in the morning and we were handed off-peak open returns from the office. These worked fine through Ealing's ticket barriers, however when we arrived at Paddington (around 9:45), the tickets wouldn't let us through the platform 12 gates to get the the H&C line. When we showed them to the inspector on the gate, she told us they were technically invalid as it was still peak time, but that she would let us through anyway.

I'd like to know what the situation would be if she hadn't been lenient, considering we'd been given those tickets at Ealing Broadway and thought nothing of it - would we have had grounds for any appeal (I'm guessing the situation could have escalated into a PF if we hadn't passed the 'attitude test')?

TIA

If it was a gateline assistant, all they could do is alert an RPI or take down your details. If it was an RPI then a PF could of been issued. If that happened, pay it and then appeal and you would be entitled to your money back.

I am guessing she thought you may of came from further afield, as which point the train would of been a peak train hence the confusion.

Many peak trains are also peak throughout so causes Gate line assistants much confusion

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ticket you mention:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=EAL&dest=SIA&ldn=1&tkt=SVR

appears to be valid at any time on the Ealing Broadway to Paddington leg, restrictions apply only on the leg on Greater Anglia. Therefore he was wrong.

ISTR that a PF cannot be issued if you hold a ticket which is only not valid by virtue of a time restriction. Presumably he could have attempted to excess to Anytime. But in any case it would have been reclaimable afterwards because the ticket was indeed valid.

Neil

 

[horizonflame]

The staff member on the gateline was incorrect.

The restriction code on the Ealing Broadway -> Southend Airport SVR is 9A. The relevant restriction to your journey is you cannot depart from Liverpool Street before 09:30 or between 16:28 and 18:35.

You are free to take which ever train into London and appropriate Underground journey you like without penalty.

 

[Merseysider]

If it was a gateline assistant, all they could do is alert an RPI or take down your details. If it was an RPI then a PF could have been issued. If that happened, pay it and then appeal and you would be entitled to your money back.

I'm afraid this isn't quite correct; as Neil states, the correct solution for a passenger travelling with a ticket not valid at that time (excluding advance tickets, that's a whole new can of worms) is to charge the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest available ticket that would have enabled the passenger to travel at that time.

she told us they were technically invalid as it was still peak time, but that she would let us through anyway.

This smells funny. It sounds to me like she had no idea one way or the other, but didn't want to commit to making a mistake either. We've had a few threads recently talking about the lack of ticketing knowledge among gateline staff.

Additionally (edit), if you are 100% certain your ticket is valid for the journey in question and end up getting a PF, I can't recommend paying it and claiming it back. The chances of it being refunded are slim shady, as the independent appeals body isn't actually independent.

 

[Abpj17]

And part of the problem is that the gates didn't think the ticket was valid either (not just the staff)

 

[455driver]

If it was a gateline assistant, all they could do is alert an RPI or take down your details. If it was an RPI then a PF could of have been issued. If that happened, pay it and then appeal and you would be entitled to your money back.

I am guessing she thought you may of have came from further afield, as which point the train would of have been a peak train hence the confusion.

Many peak trains are also peak throughout so causes Gate line assistants much confusion

The word is have not of!

Edit to get the other one!

 

[Tomnick]

Thye word is have not of!

You missed one .

 

[yorkie]

The ticket was valid


Make sure it is reported as FGW had previously informed members this issue would not persist.

 

[455driver]

You missed one .

Bugger, so I did!

Since corrected along with my own spelling mistake caused by a bandaged hand!

 

[Merseysider]

Bugger, so I did!

Since corrected along with my own spelling mistake caused by a bandaged hand!

Not as a result of punching a passenger I hope?

 

[Greenback]

This definitely needs to be reported. Too many staff seem to think that if the barriers say no, then they must be right, and they lack sufficient knowledge or training to either know different or to check for themselves.

 

[LWB]

The word is have not of!

Edit to get the other one!

Bravo 455 but I fear the battle has long been lost over that one.

 

[reb0118]

Too many staff seem to think that if the barriers say no, then they must be right, and they lack sufficient knowledge or training to either know different or to check for themselves.

As far as I am aware barrier staff do not receive any commercial training but are expected to pick it up on the job so to speak.

In my experience that leads to many more invalid tickets being let through than valid tickets stopped. (That said I have just thought of a major flaw in that argument). It could be different for other operators/locations.

 

[yorkie]

As far as I am aware barrier staff do not receive any commercial training but are expected to pick it up on the job so to speak.

Agreed. Most TOCs do not appear to want the expense of adequately training these staff.

In my experience that leads to many more invalid tickets being let through than valid tickets stopped

I understand TOCs are likely to have a policy of 'if in doubt, let them through' however even if that is the official policy, some staff either take it upon themselves, or are instructed by managers, to reject off peak tickets if they are in doubt, or are simply told that "all off peak tickets are not valid before 0930".

In the South, you're more likely to be rejected on a valid ticket, while up North the reverse appears to be true.

It could be different for other operators/locations.

It certainly does vary by TOC and location, yes.

Leeds/Brum might accept a Bite card, while in contrast it would be very easy to get a valid ticket rejected at, say, King's Cross LU.

 

[Muzer]

Given that printing restriction codes on tickets is still being slowly rolled out, would it not be a good idea for TOCs to print handbooks for such staff explaining each restriction code? Then there wouldn't be the ridiculous situation we have now where staff are basically expected to memorise every restriction code (at least for tickets that could be used passing through their station)... it would also provide more of an incentive to speed up the roll out of printing said restriction codes.

 

[hassaanhc]

Given that printing restriction codes on tickets is still being slowly rolled out, would it not be a good idea for TOCs to print handbooks for such staff explaining each restriction code? Then there wouldn't be the ridiculous situation we have now where staff are basically expected to memorise every restriction code (at least for tickets that could be used passing through their station)... it would also provide more of an incentive to speed up the roll out of printing said restriction codes.

They are usually printed these days, just becoming more prominent on the new ticket design. https://www.flickr.com/photos/127245740@N06/tags/restrictioncodeprinted/

 

[ainsworth74]

Given that printing restriction codes on tickets is still being slowly rolled out, would it not be a good idea for TOCs to print handbooks for such staff explaining each restriction code? Then there wouldn't be the ridiculous situation we have now where staff are basically expected to memorise every restriction code (at least for tickets that could be used passing through their station)... it would also provide more of an incentive to speed up the roll out of printing said restriction codes.

Some of the restrictions can be very long so the booklet would end up being quite a hefty document. It would also need reprinting fairly regularly to accommodate changes in restriction codes.

I believe that Avantix can display what specific restrictions are so it might make more sense to ensure that gateline staff have access to an Avantix.

 

[Flamingo]

There are barely enough Avantix to go around as it is.

 

[Merseysider]

There are barely enough Avantix to go around as it is.

But why don't they simply buy more? And buy some new carriages as well while they're at it! :roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

Yeah I did think that might be an issue...

 

[Flamingo]

But why don't they simply buy more? And buy some new carriages as well while they're at it! :roll:

They are old kit, based on old technology, and are slowly wearing out. I would be very surprised if they are still being made.

They are leased from ATOS, I believe, and cost a fortune.

 

[455driver]

Not as a result of punching a passenger I hope?

Nope an argument with a stanley knife blade I was sharpening, it was difinitely sharp!

 

[ollyrogers]

Thankyou guys, can anyone guide me in which direction to report this in? What made the situation even more odd was that when we returned on the 1st, my ticket let me through the barriers yet she kept getting 'seek assistance' at the exit barrier of Liverpool Street, the entrance barrier at Paddington (yet not when leaving the H&C) and Ealing Broadway. All very perplexing...

 

[bnm]

In the South, you're more likely to be rejected on a valid ticket, while up North the reverse appears to be true.

Quite true. Far more users of trains in the south. That said, are there statistics to back up your assertion of this north/south bias?

 

[sor]

They are old kit, based on old technology, and are slowly wearing out. I would be very surprised if they are still being made.

They are leased from ATOS, I believe, and cost a fortune.

Is there a replacement in the works? I'd have thought that a device based on a PDA from about 10 years ago and an operating system that has been discontinued for several years would ripe for total replacement by now.

It could even have 3G/4G and a built in chip and PIN reader to cover the occasions where people use online cards

 

[Merseysider]

Is there a replacement in the works? I'd have thought that a device based on a PDA from about 10 years ago and an operating system that has been discontinued for several years would ripe for total replacement by now.

It could even have 3G/4G and a built in chip and PIN reader to cover the occasions where people use online cards

I believe some (all?) of the Avantix machines in use have a slot for a SIM card, thus making online connection possible, but this hasn't actually been put to use.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Is there a replacement in the works? I'd have thought that a device based on a PDA from about 10 years ago and an operating system that has been discontinued for several years would ripe for total replacement by now.

It could even have 3G/4G and a built in chip and PIN reader to cover the occasions where people use online cards

Given how long SPORTIS lasted after BR (and it wasn't exactly new tech then) says they will keep them going until they fall apart.

 

[Flamingo]

Is there a replacement in the works? I'd have thought that a device based on a PDA from about 10 years ago and an operating system that has been discontinued for several years would ripe for total replacement by now.

It could even have 3G/4G and a built in chip and PIN reader to cover the occasions where people use online cards

Ten? Fifteen or sixteen, more like!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd have thought that a device based on a PDA from about 10 years ago and an operating system that has been discontinued for several years would ripe for total replacement by now

For ATOS Origin that's state of the art technology!