Off Lease Rolling Stock Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Clansman

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2016
Messages
2,326
Thought I'd shake this thread up a little bit and try and establish a list of off lease rolling stock from TOCs so here goes nothing;

EMUs
Class 317 x 36 [2019-2020]
Class 319 x 42 [2017]
Class 321 x 94 [2018-2020]
Class 322 x 5 [2018-2019]
Class 323 x 17 [2018-2019]
Class 360 x 21 [2019-2020]
Class 365 x 21 [2018-2019]
Class 379 x 30 [2019-2020]
Class 442 x 6 [-2017]*1
Class 455 x 91 [2019-2020]*1
Class 456 x 24 [2019-2020]*1
Class 458 x 36 [2019-2020]*1
Class 707 x 30 [2019-2020]*2

DMUs
Class 144 x 1 [2018]*3
Class 156 x 14 [2018-2020]
Class 170 x 12 [2019-2020]
Class 172 x 8 [2018]

DEMUs
Class 230 x 2 [2018]*4

Locomotives
Class 43 x 79 [2017-2019]
Class 60 x 20 [2016-]*5
Class 90 x 15 [2019-2020]
Class 91 x 31 [2018-2019]*6

DVTs
Mk3 x 30 [2019-2020]
Mk4 x 23 [2018-2019]*6

Non 2020 Compliant Coaches
Mk2 x 22 [2018]
Mk3 x 665 [2017-2020]*7
Mk4 x 302 [2018]*8

Non 2020 Compliant Multiple Units & Others *9
Class 142 x 92 [2018-2019]
Class 143 x 23 [2018-2019]
Class 144 x 22 [2018-2019]
Class 153 x 31 [2018-2020]
Class 313 x 44 [2018-2019]
Class 314 x 16 [2018-2019]
Class 315 x 61 [2019-2020]
Class 507 x 32 [2019-2021]*1
Class 508 x 27 [2019-2021]*1

Notes
*1 = 3rd Rail Only
*2 = 3rd Rail & OHL
*3 = Class 144 Evolution
*4 = Viva Rail D-Stock conversion availible to purchase
*5 = All 20 availible to purchase from DBS
*6 = Up to 8 may be retained
*7 = Sleeper: Mk3 SLEP x 47, Mk3 SLED x 6
*8 = Up to 72 may be retained
*9 = Multiple units listed in here are those where 2020 modifications hasn't already been tried and tested en mass aboard units of the same class or of similar build
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Robbies

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
2,388
Sorry if this has been covered else where but I was wondering the statistics on the stock going in and out of TOCs UK wide, as there's a lot of chopping and changing going on from top to toe between now and 2020 with the likes of the Hitachi units arriving thick and fast along with other units from elsewhere.

I'll start off, for example:

Scotrail

Out
Class 170 x 21 (16 to Northern)
Class 156 x 10 (5 to Northern)
Class 158 x 8 (All to Northern)
Class 314 x 16 (All to be scrapped)

In
Class 365 x 70 (Newly Built)
Class 43 x 54 (All cascaded from GWR)
Mk3 Carriage x 121 (All cascaded from GWR

Difference
+42 sets

The class 365 are not newly built. I presume that you mean the AT200 trains which are going to be class 385.
 

507021

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
4,442
Location
Liverpool
Northern

IN:
20x Class 150. (17x ex GWR, 3x ex London Midland)
5x Class 156. (ex ScotRail)
8x Class 158. (ex ScotRail)
16x Class 170. (ex ScotRail)
55x Class 195. (brand new)
12x Class 319. (ex Thameslink)
43x Class 331. (brand new)

TOTAL: 159.

OUT:
79x Class 142. (to be scrapped)
23x Class 144. (unknown)
18x Class 153. (1x to EMT, 17x to unknown)
3x Class 321. (to unknown)
5x Class 322. (to unknown)
17x Class 323. (presumed to London Midland)

TOTAL: 145.

After the sixteen Class 150/9 hybrid 3-car units have been formed, there'll be an overall gain of six units compared to Northern's current fleet, but there'll be a larger increase in the number of carriages.
 

Carntyne

Member
Joined
8 Jul 2015
Messages
810
Sorry if this has been covered else where but I was wondering the statistics on the stock going in and out of TOCs UK wide, as there's a lot of chopping and changing going on from top to toe between now and 2020 with the likes of the Hitachi units arriving thick and fast along with other units from elsewhere.

I'll start off, for example:

Scotrail

Out
Class 170 x 21 (16 to Northern)
Class 156 x 10 (5 to Northern)
Class 158 x 8 (All to Northern)
Class 314 x 16 (All to be scrapped)

In
Class 385 x 70 (Newly Built)
Class 43 x 54 (All cascaded from GWR)
Mk3 Carriage x 121 (All cascaded from GWR

Difference
+42 sets

+7 Class 320/4s
 

158722

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2009
Messages
823
Class 43 x 54 (All cascaded from GWR)
Mk3 Carriage x 121 (All cascaded from GWR

Whilst 27 HST sets have been confirmed, has it ever been clarified as to exactly how many PCs will transfer? 54 would leave no spares.

Notably, there are 56 Angel owned non-GEC traction motored PCs at GWR in the 43002-042, 43163-198.
 

gimmea50anyday

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2013
Messages
3,152
Location
Back Cab
TPE

Current

51 x 185
04 x 170

Dec 2016

51 x 185
02 x mk3 LHCS (rumoured TBC for training purposes only)


2020

13 x cl68 loco hauling 13 x mk5 rake
19 x 800 derivative
13 x CAF (designation TBC)
29 x 185
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
Northern

IN:
20x Class 150. (17x ex GWR, 3x ex London Midland)
5x Class 156. (ex ScotRail)
8x Class 158. (ex ScotRail)
16x Class 170. (ex ScotRail)
55x Class 195. (brand new)
12x Class 319. (ex Thameslink)
43x Class 331. (brand new)

TOTAL: 159.

OUT:
79x Class 142. (to be scrapped)
23x Class 144. (unknown)
18x Class 153. (1x to EMT, 17x to unknown)
3x Class 321. (to unknown)
5x Class 322. (to unknown)
17x Class 323. (presumed to London Midland)

TOTAL: 145.

After the sixteen Class 150/9 hybrid 3-car units have been formed, there'll be an overall gain of six units compared to Northern's current fleet, but there'll be a larger increase in the number of carriages.

That doesn't sound good considering you've omitted the loaned in 185s and loco-hauled sets, while Northern are to enhance frequencies and introduce services on routes they don't currently operate.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
69,091
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That doesn't sound good considering you've omitted the loaned in 185s and loco-hauled sets, while Northern are to enhance frequencies and introduce services on routes they don't currently operate.

Agreed, it is totally inadequate. They really need at least 1.5 times the fleet they had, preferably double.
 

D365

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
8,638
Agreed, it is totally inadequate. They really need at least 1.5 times the fleet they had, preferably double.

I imagine that they will have options for additional carriages coming from the CAF order - else they might feel free to take on a few more 319s :D
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
I imagine that they will have options for additional carriages coming from the CAF order - else they might feel free to take on a few more 319s :D

There sounds like they'll be plenty of electric carriages in the Northern fleet by 2019 but the bare minimum of diesel carriages. However, the good news is there's supposed to a further 36 diesel carriages arriving by 2022 - some people have suggested the next GWR franchise will off-load the remainder of their 150s which will be where those additional DMUs come from.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
69,091
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There sounds like they'll be plenty of electric carriages in the Northern fleet by 2019 but the bare minimum of diesel carriages. However, the good news is there's supposed to a further 36 diesel carriages arriving by 2022 - some people have suggested the next GWR franchise will off-load the remainder of their 150s which will be where those additional DMUs come from.

Yes, that will improve the numbers to something approaching a sufficient level - though on the background of growth...
 

158722

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2009
Messages
823
Are Scotrail not holding on to 13 Class 170 they were getting rid of?

Yes, 29 (plus the 5 TSGN) were to leave, but now reduced to 16.

170453-461 & 472-478 were the 16 quoted as to leave, along with 416-420 to TSGN.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
16,931
Location
Reston City Centre
Northern

IN:
20x Class 150. (17x ex GWR, 3x ex London Midland)
5x Class 156. (ex ScotRail)
8x Class 158. (ex ScotRail)
16x Class 170. (ex ScotRail)
55x Class 195. (brand new)
12x Class 319. (ex Thameslink)
43x Class 331. (brand new)

TOTAL: 159.

OUT:
79x Class 142. (to be scrapped)
23x Class 144. (unknown)
18x Class 153. (1x to EMT, 17x to unknown)
3x Class 321. (to unknown)
5x Class 322. (to unknown)
17x Class 323. (presumed to London Midland)

TOTAL: 145.

After the sixteen Class 150/9 hybrid 3-car units have been formed, there'll be an overall gain of six units compared to Northern's current fleet, but there'll be a larger increase in the number of carriages.

That doesn't sound good considering you've omitted the loaned in 185s and loco-hauled sets, while Northern are to enhance frequencies and introduce services on routes they don't currently operate.

Agreed, it is totally inadequate. They really need at least 1.5 times the fleet they had, preferably double.

I imagine that they will have options for additional carriages coming from the CAF order - else they might feel free to take on a few more 319s :D

There sounds like they'll be plenty of electric carriages in the Northern fleet by 2019 but the bare minimum of diesel carriages. However, the good news is there's supposed to a further 36 diesel carriages arriving by 2022 - some people have suggested the next GWR franchise will off-load the remainder of their 150s which will be where those additional DMUs come from.

Not just an increase in carriages, but also an increase in average carriage length.

Very rough maths but the entire Northern Pacer fleet of over a hundred DMUs (79x30m 142s + 13x30m 144s + 10x45m 144s) is marginally shorter than just fifty five 195s.

The eighteen 153s are roughly equivalent to just half a dozen 170s, which is less than half the number of Turbostars that Northern are due to receive.

So to compare "number of trains leaving the franchise" versus "number of trains joining the franchise" seems disingenuous, when a large number of the trains leaving the franchise are going to be twenty three metre or thirty metres long, and a large numbers of the trains joining the franchise are going to be double that length.

We can get into an arguments about the various different types of seats if anyone can be bothered, we can argue about whether it's fair to include the middle seat where there are three abrest (since people can be reluctant to take them), I don't mind...

...but to complain about the number of additional units seems daft (when most of the smallest units are leaving the franchise and most of the units joining will be considerably longer).
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
So to compare "number of trains leaving the franchise" versus "number of trains joining the franchise" seems disingenuous, when a large number of the trains leaving the franchise are going to be twenty three metre or thirty metres long, and a large numbers of the trains joining the franchise are going to be double that length.

I accept the points about different lengths. However, note that only one of the 31m trains contains a large accessible toilet and a proper wheelchair bay, which is something every train in the Northern fleet will have by 2019. The 40m class 150s which aren't reformed to create 3 car sets, will probably have similar total capacity to what the 142s currently have by 2019.
 

D365

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
8,638
It would come as no shock to find that Northern hang onto a few dogboxes for chucking onto strengthan dda compliant sprinters

But it has been confirmed that Northern will be offloading their 153s...
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
10,608
Whilst 27 HST sets have been confirmed, has it ever been clarified as to exactly how many PCs will transfer? 54 would leave no spares.



Notably, there are 56 Angel owned non-GEC traction motored PCs at GWR in the 43002-042, 43163-198.

It's 24 daily diagrams according to the franchise agreement. As the power car fleet obtains around 80-85% availability currently you need somewhere between 54 and 60 power cars depending on how brave you are...
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
....We can get into an arguments about the various different types of seats if anyone can be bothered, we can argue about whether it's fair to include the middle seat where there are three abrest (since people can be reluctant to take them), I don't mind...

...but to complain about the number of additional units seems daft (when most of the smallest units are leaving the franchise and most of the units joining will be considerably longer).

It's not how many coaches, units, seats, extra metres, and so on, there are in the trains, it's how you use them that counts.

If a three car 170 replaces a 150+153 formation, then you're increasing length, but probably reducing seats. If your 170 replaces a pair of 153s, or a 156, you might increase both, but then that third coach isn't being deployed to replace another 153.

It's quite pointless saying brand new diesel carriages total about the same length as all the out going Pacer carriages, because you're comparing 55 new trains with 102 old ones. If you deployed the new trains on a one to one basis, you're total train length is about the same, but you're going to be cancelling more trains than GTR.
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
Im aware of that but look at Scotrails change of heart on 170s? When the contract started we were expecting all to be let go and now they plan to keep about a quarter

That's partly due to the off-lease 170s being the newest available suitable stock that Transport Scotland could secure. With Northern there are other options like the 185s they weren't allowed to propose taking on in the franchise bidding or adding to the existing order for CAF Civities and maybe in a few weeks we'll find that the next Anglia franchise will be releasing DMUs currently in the fleet.
 
Last edited:

158722

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2009
Messages
823
It's 24 daily diagrams according to the franchise agreement. As the power car fleet obtains around 80-85% availability currently you need somewhere between 54 and 60 power cars depending on how brave you are...

48 from 56 is 85%...
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
13,280
Location
Another planet...
But it has been confirmed that Northern will be offloading their 153s...

The only chance of a reversal of that decision will be if (a) the projected fleet size turns out to be woefully inadequate, and (b) the owning ROSCOs are stuck with a load of 153/155 vehicles that they can't lease, so they reduce the leasing rates to a level that DfT/Rail North/any of the PTEs can subsidise to boost capacity. If this were to happen I'd expect them to be reformed as 2 or 3-car 155s. Such a move would at least mean the 7x155s would be less of a microfleet. (a) is quite likely, but (b) is less so.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top