Off Lease Rolling Stock Updates

[superalbs]

Is that really a surprise by now?

It's a disappointment regardless.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Looks like GWR are to keep their Class 143s until 2020 instead of 2017 now. Oh well. :/

No, they are now due to go in April 2019, together with the 5 Porterbrook cl.153.

The trigger for them going will be the release of Turbos from the Newbury electrification displacing 15x stock further west.

 

[Clansman]

Had a stab at establishing the figures of all TOC rolling stock going off lease soon, without any homes;

EMUs
Class 317 x 36 [2019-2020]
Class 319 x 8 [-2018]
Class 321 x 94 [2018-2020]
Class 322 x 5 [2018-2019]
Class 323 x 17 [2018-2019]
Class 360 x 21 [2019-2020]
Class 365 x 21 [2018-2019]
Class 379 x 30 [2019-2020]
Class 442 x 24 [-2017]

DMUs
Class 144 x 1 [2018]*
Class 156 x 14 [2018-2020]
Class 170 x 12 [2019-2020]
Class 172 x 8 [2018]

Coaches
Mk2 x 22 [2018]**
Mk3 x 562 [2017-2020]
Mk3 x 53 [2018]***
Mk4 x 230 [2018-2019]

Locomotives
Class 43 x 79 [2017-2019]
Class 90 x 15 [2019-2020]
Class 91 x 23 [2018-2019]

DVTs
Mk3 x 30 [2019-2020]
Mk4 x 23 [2018-2019]

Non 2020 Compliant & Others
Class 142 x 92 [2018-2019]
Class 143 x 23 [2018-2019]
Class 144 x 22 [2018-2019]
Class 153 x 31 [2018-2020]
Class 313 x 44 [2018-2019]
Class 314 x 16 [2018-2019]
Class 315 x 61 [2019-2020]
Class 507 x 32 [2019-2021]
Class 508 x 27 [2019-2021]

Notes
*144 Evolution
**Caledonian Sleeper (12 RFBs & 12 BFO/BSOs)
***Caledonian Sleeper Mk3 Sleepers


Criticise as you may as I'm positive I'm off with a couple of them, but at least it gives a rough idea of the scale of the off-leases.

 

[Roast Veg]

Have we got dates for those? Trying to visualise where they might end up down the line. Also I think excluding the 143s and 144s but not the 153s is a little odd, since they're about as likely as each other to see work in the future. Are the 319s already stored included?

 

[Clansman]

Have we got dates for those? Trying to visualise where they might end up down the line. Also I think excluding the 143s and 144s but not the 153s is a little odd, since they're about as likely as each other to see work in the future. Are the 319s already stored included?

No idea about the dates, all I know is most of the chopping and changing is happening in 2018. I'll hunt the dates down.

I excluded the Pacers based on disability regulations but kept the 153s as I believe some are being made "2020 proof", hence why I didn't rule them out completely. Which is also why I've only included the one Pacer (144e) because of this.

Yes, I've included the 319s in storage

EDIT: I've put dates on them, although they may be a little off. Hopefully I've got them accurate enough.

 

[Thedispatcher]

Any ideas what's what for London Midland? I've heard rumours about more 153s. (Dear God no)

 

[D365]

EDIT: I've put dates on them, although they may be a little off. Hopefully I've got them accurate enough.

Won't Greater Anglia have more than 94 Class 321s coming off-lease? And there's more than 8 Class 319s without a future home surely.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Had a stab at establishing the figures of all TOC rolling stock going off lease soon, without any homes;

EMUs
Class 365 x 21 [2018-2019]
Class 321 x 94 [2018-2020]
Class 322 x 5 [2018-2019]
Class 317 x 36 [2019-2020]
Class 319 x 8 [-2018]
Class 323 x 17 [2018-2019]
Class 360 x 21 [2019-2020]
Class 379 x 30 [2019-2020]
Class 442 x 24 [-2017]

DMUs
Class 144 x 1 (Evolution) [2018]
Class 170 x 12 [2019-2020]
Class 172 x 8 [2018]
Class 153 x 22 [2018-2020]
Class 156 x 9 [2019-2020]

Coaches
Mk4 x 230 [2018-2019]
Mk3 x 562 [2017-2020]
Mk3 x 53 (Sleeper) [2018]
Mk2 x 22 (12 RFB, 12 BFO/BSO) [2018]

Locomotives
Class 43 x 79 [2017-2019]
Class 91 x 33 [2018-2019]
Class 90 x 15 [2019-2020]

DVTs
Mk3 x 30 [2019-2020]
Mk4 x 23 [2018-2019]

PEPs and Pacers excluded

Criticise as you may as I'm positive I'm off with a couple of them, but at least it gives a rough idea of the scale of the off-leases.

Scotrail are releasing 10 Class 156's of which only 5 are going to Northern
Anglia are releasing 9 Class 156's
That's 14 off lease not 9

 

[pemma]

DMUs
Class 144 x 1 (Evolution) [2018]
Class 153 x 22 [2018-2020]

I'm a bit confused why you've only mentioned 1 x 144 but have mentioned 22 x 153s. While only 1 x 144 meets the post-2019 requirements there aren't any 153s meeting the post-2019 requirements.

We also don't know for certain whether the e144 will be in the first or last batch that will be released. They are actually all leased until 31st December 2019 but the option of returning them starting in September 2018 is available provided replacement stock is in revenue earning service.

I also don't know where the figure of 22 has come from. By my reckoning GWR will eventually release 14 with 6 of which going to LM (8 left), Northern will release 18 with 1 going to EMT (17 left) and Anglia will release 5, making a total of 31 released.

 

[Clansman]

I also don't know where the figure of 22 has come from. By my reckoning GWR will eventually release 14 with 6 of which going to LM (8 left), Northern will release 18 with 1 going to EMT (17 left) and Anglia will release 5, making a total of 31 released.

My 153 figure was purely based on the Northern lot due for the scrapheap, so as said, I never expected them to be perfect. Cheers for the correction though

Just to clear things up a bit, I've now included non 2020 compliant stock and the PEP units in one list, which are more than likely destined for the scrap.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just to clear things up a bit, I've now included non 2020 compliant stock and the PEP units in one list, which are more than likely destined for the scrap.

There's also Merseyrail's entire 507/508 fleet to add to the PEP list by 2020.

 

[Clansman]

There's also Merseyrail's entire 507/508 fleet to add to the PEP list by 2020.

Updated

 

[physics34]

Come on SOuthern... replace the 313s with the 365s and replace the 455s with 319s

 

[D365]

Come on SOuthern... replace the 313s with the 365s and replace the 455s with 319s

Get your hands off our 365s!

 

[BantamMenace]

What are the latest rumours or sensible suggestions for the 365s? Is there any background as to why northern went for 319 not 365s?

 

[BR60062]

33 Class 91's? I thought there is/was only 31 that BR ordered from 91001 to 91031 that became 91101 to 91131 after refurbishment .

 

[D365]

What are the latest rumours or sensible suggestions for the 365s? Is there any background as to why northern went for 319 not 365s?

The 319s were available far sooner (2015).

 

[pemma]

What are the latest rumours or sensible suggestions for the 365s? Is there any background as to why northern went for 319 not 365s?

The 319s were available far sooner (2015).

Also the business case for Chat Moss electrification was originally based on Northern getting released 319s instead of the brand new DMUs that they had been expected to get. Although, the coalition government's spending review said North West electrification should go ahead even if the Thameslink program didn't go ahead.

Although, there was a suggestion that at least one Northern bidder looked at replacing 323s with 365s.

 

[Clansman]

33 Class 91's? I thought there is/was only 31 that BR ordered from 91001 to 91031 that became 91101 to 91131 after refurbishment .

Mistook the number constructed for the number in service. Now corrected

Although, there was a suggestion that at least one Northern bidder looked at replacing 323s with 365s.

What is the reasoning behind getting rid of the 323s? Are they surplus to requirements once the new stock comes in or is there something else behind it?

 

[323235]

London Midland need them for the Cross City line (including 3tph? to the new Bromsgrove terminus), it makes more sense to operate them as one fleet and Northern are getting new trains to replace them and they have 319s to supplement.

 

[pemma]

London Midland need them for the Cross City line (including 3tph? to the new Bromsgrove terminus), it makes more sense to operate them as one fleet and Northern are getting new trains to replace them and they have 319s to supplement.

Actually the 3 x extra 350/3s were ordered to cover Bromsgrove.

A few years ago DfT suggested Northern getting new EMUs and releasing their 323s to LM, which is an idea Porterbrook like despite DfT dropping the proposal. So Porterbrook decided to try and make it happen by saying to Northern bidders that they wouldn't be able to lease any 323s off them as of 1st January 2019. Porterbrook also tried to get Northern bidders to take on upgraded 319s to replace 323s which they failed to do.

Whether it will result in the winning LM bidder taking on all the 323s is another matter, especially considering LM bidders have been asked to consider whether it would be beneficial to get more long distance style trains for Liverpool-Birmingham and Crewe-Euston. There's been suggestions LM will release the (Porterbrook owned) 350/2s, as well as the 319s if they get new build + cascaded 323s. Maybe Porterbrook have shot themselves in the foot?

 

[WatcherZero]

I don't think there was any question as to their performance but perhaps there were maintenance savings opportunities available.

 

[Marklund]

Mistook the number constructed for the number in service. Now corrected

That's the same number!

 

[D365]

Whether it will result in the winning LM bidder taking on all the 323s is another matter, especially considering LM bidders have been asked to consider whether it would be beneficial to get more long distance style trains for Liverpool-Birmingham and Crewe-Euston. There's been suggestions LM will release the (Porterbrook owned) 350/2s, as well as the 319s if they get new build + cascaded 323s. Maybe Porterbrook have shot themselves in the foot?

There's the Class 360s coming off-lease soon as well.

 

[D365]

Mistook the number constructed for the number in service. Now corrected

Only 31 were ever built.

 

[Clansman]

Only 31 were ever built.

That's the same number!

Edit: Aren't 8 Class 91s being retained by VTEC? So the number going off-lease is 23.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Actually the 3 x extra 350/3s were ordered to cover Bromsgrove.

Not quite; of the three "West Midlands" 350/3s, one was used to release a 323 for the 3tph service to Redditch. The other two 350/3s were redeployed to the London area to mitigate acute overcrowding in and out of Euston.

The Bromsgrove extension looks likely to start under WM in December with further short-forming on the CrossCity (as happened last autumn when the 323s were retractioned).

 

[pemma]

Not quite; of the three "West Midlands" 350/3s, one was used to release a 323 for the 3tph service to Redditch. The other two 350/3s were redeployed to the London area to mitigate acute overcrowding in and out of Euston.

The Bromsgrove extension looks likely to start under WM in December with further short-forming on the CrossCity (as happened last autumn when the 323s were retractioned).

Like I said the 3 extra 350s were ordered to cover Bromsgrove.

12 of the carriages London Midland will receive will help deliver an internal rolling stock cascade that will provide additional capacity on the Cross-City Line in Birmingham. The frequency of peak and off-peak services between Birmingham and Redditch will be increased from two trains to three trains per hour from December 2014. The trains will also enable electric services from Birmingham New Street to be extended to Bromsgrove from May 2015, assuming that the plan to relocate Bromsgrove Station is confirmed and electrification is completed on schedule [Editor’s note: Work began in March 2014, with electrification to be complete by summer 2016].

The other 28 London Midland carriages will provide faster peak journeys and extra capacity on services into London Euston from December 2014. Peak journey times between London and Northampton will be reduced by up to 10 minutes and the services between Milton Keynes and London will be reduced by up to seven minutes. London Midland will also be able to run three additional am peak services and five additional pm peak services into and out of London Euston.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-3s-for-london-midland-to-enter-service-early

LM have obviously had more sense than to keep 3 x 350s out-of-service until the Bromsgrove extension started but any strengthening was only temporary unless they lobbied DfT for further additional carriages - which they haven't done.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Like I said the 3 extra 350s were ordered to cover Bromsgrove.

Not quite; the Bromsgrove extension requires 2, not 3, extra units on the CrossCity diagrams. The third unit was for the additional 3ph service to Redditch that has been introduced by LM (as per the quotation in your posting).

Bromsgrove was supposed to have started with the December 2016 timetable (as documented in the LM Direct Award FA) but NRIL delays mean that LM will never run electric trains to Bromsgrove.

LM has announced permanent strengthening of peak-hour services from Euston, most recently one (possibly the 1705) went from 8 to 12 cars last December. This presumably was agreed with DfT as several services are running with passengers standing for more than 20 minutes and the TOC is required to come up with a mitigation plan under the DA FA.

Since then LM has suffered the Watford mishap sidelining two 350s and it is regularly shortforming services (between two and four most days). Today the 1713 and 1749 services from Euston are both 8 v 12 this afternoon. With regular shortforming (323 on the CrossCity last autumn when one unit was away for retractioning, and out of Euston since the mishap at Watford), there clearly aren't any spare electric units available to LM to the end of its existence.

I have been told by an LM source that the TOC has refused to take any more 319s on lease because of the poor reliability of the ones it has got. Perhaps wait to see if WM takes a different approach.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Edit: Aren't 8 Class 91s being retained by VTEC? So the number going off-lease is 23.

About half a dozen staying, or so I've heard.