Off peak and stressed out error

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
Hi

I got stopped today leaving Levenshulme station as I returned from Manchester picadilly because I had an off peak ticket. It was a general mistake as I believed it to be half 4 and my local train where I grew up and where my parents live there is no evening peak time. I got a 16 04 service which meant I was just out the threshold. I was extremely embarrassed and got myself into a bit of a panic. I accidentally gave him my last address and not my current one, I have lived in a different place every year whilst being at Univeristy and I am still not settled in one long term place.

After it dawned on me what I had said I corrected him and gave him my current one, please could someone advise me on what will happen now and if I will be in a worse position due to being in such a panic and flap.

I couldn't sit still at home knowing what had happened as I have recently got a good graduate job, so I went back and spoke to the team and the more senior one told me not worry as it is a first time offence. Is this correct?

Thank you
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,279
Location
Redcar
Can you just confirm for me that you held a ticket that was valid for the two stations you were travelling between and that the issue was that you had an Off-Peak ticket at a time when it wasn't valid for travel?
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,382
Location
Reading
The question is what you might have done or said to cause them to ask you for your name and address. If the only problem was use of an off-peak ticket at a time of day it was not valid, you should just have been charged the difference, under the conditions of carriage paragraph 12.

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) Condition 2 or 4 will apply.
If you purchase an Advance ticket, you must use that ticket in the train specified when you book your ticket. However, if you miss this service because a previous connecting train service was delayed you will be able to travel on the next service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked to travel without penalty.
If you have an Off-Peak or Super Off-Peak ticket and board a train on which your ticket is not valid, you will only be charged the difference between the fare you have paid and the cheapest valid Anytime or Off-Peak fare for the service concerned. The same principle will apply if you wish to transfer to first class accommodation. This rule does not apply in designated Penalty Fares areas, where you may be required to pay a Penalty Fare.
 
Last edited:

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
I had a valid off peak ticket but I was travelling during the wrong time. I had only bought it 10 minutes previous at Picadilly. They also stopped another traveller who had a similar issue. I had a railcard but that is in date. They didn't hesitate in asking for my details. I'm quite upset and stressed out as I don't want to it continue to haunt me and effect other aspects of my life.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
23,279
Location
Redcar
As long as your ticket was valid in all respect apart from being an Off-Peak ticket when it should have been an Anytime then I see no reason for the revenue protection at your destination to have taken any details. They should have issued an excess (where you pay the difference between the ticket you have and the ticket you should have had) in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (the contract that you and the railway enter into when you buy a ticket) as quoted above by furlong.

As such I'm not sure why they would resort to taking details. What happened when you showed you ticket? How did the conversation go?
 

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
Hi

Thanks both for your reply.

I left the platform went under the tracks to the exit. I could hear them shouting tickets and railcards please. I then went to provide my ticket and railcard. The first inspector didn't say anything but simply asked me to speak to his colleague. I spoke to him and he asked me why I had that ticket I explained I believed it to half 4 or no evening peak trap like in some areas of North Yorkshire where I am originally from. He said ok, well you will need to explain that in writing when Northern Rail contact you and he asked me for my details. I was so humiliated as I was in front of several people and really panicked. I don't know why but my old address just came out my mouth, I have previously ordered takeaways there by accident as it is a default!!! My dad has been caught out with this before and they allowed him to pay the difference there and then.
 

CheesyChips

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
217
Like everyone else has said and demonstrated with emboldened excerpts, you should have just been charged the difference. Revenue protection bots are nothing more than the first line of reporting, they don't bring critical thinking to the matter.

If the ticket was otherwise valid, this will be discovered when somebody reviews the report so there's no need to panic. You may just receive a letter asking for the difference in fares.

Were you given any documentation? Were you asked to sign anything? Did the person dealing with you read you a caution that began with "you do not have to say anything..."?
 

crehld

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
1 Nov 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
Norfolk
There were no grounds for the inspector to take your details. As ainsworth74 and furlong have stated you should have been sold an excess, and I would expect any revenue inspector with even the most rudimentary training and knowledge to have known this. I completely emphasize with how you felt in front of the other people.

In terms of how you go forward I think it best to wait a couple of days for the paperwork to make its way through the Northern Rail bureaucratic machine and then possibly call up the revenue protection team. Explain the situation, explain that you were not offered the opportunity to purchase an excess fare between the off-peak and anytime price as you should have been and offer to make that payment. Also ask for written confirmation of that payment and that no further action will be taken against you.
 
Last edited:

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
Hi thanks Cheesy Chips,

Ok you are making me feel a little better. He did a check on my address and then he asked me to sign the back of my ticket and his notebook. But he did not say anything like "you do not have to say anything" and I did not receive any documentation when I left.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,382
Location
Reading
Well the part of the contract I quoted above states that the restrictions will be made clear when you bought the ticket, and so the person you spoke to might very reasonably have assumed that just a few minutes earlier you were informed you could not travel on that train. Did you buy from the ticket office or a machine and were the restrictions in fact made clear at this point of sale, as required by the contract, or not?
 
Last edited:

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
I did buy it from a machine, I could hear my train being called in picadilly and I had several bags of shopping, I just pressed the first button and powered through the process. I didn't think twice and dashed for my train.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
6,736
Hi

I got stopped today leaving Levenshulme station as I returned from Manchester picadilly because I had an off peak ticket. It was a general mistake as I believed it to be half 4 and my local train where I grew up and where my parents live there is no evening peak time. I got a 16 04 service which meant I was just out the threshold. I was extremely embarrassed and got myself into a bit of a panic. I accidentally gave him my last address and not my current one, I have lived in a different place every year whilst being at Univeristy and I am still not settled in one long term place.

After it dawned on me what I had said I corrected him and gave him my current one, please could someone advise me on what will happen now and if I will be in a worse position due to being in such a panic and flap.

I couldn't sit still at home knowing what had happened as I have recently got a good graduate job, so I went back and spoke to the team and the more senior one told me not worry as it is a first time offence. Is this correct?

Thank you

Can you just clarify? How much of a gap was there between giving the two addresses?
 

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
A minute probably, I don't know exactly the whole experience was very humiliating and he was also on the phone.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,382
Location
Reading
Did you buy from the ticket office or a machine and were the time restrictions made clear to you there or not?
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,294
Location
Merseyside
Does it make any difference if the restrictions were made clear or not? Surely the overriding factor is that the contract makes clear that only an excess can be charged.

Also, it is stated above that there was no grounds for asking for the passengers name and address. If this is true does that mean they didn't need to provide them.
 

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
I purchased it from a machine, but I thought I posted in a previous post that I wasn't sure of the time, I had around 7 bags and heard the train being called. I just powered through the process and paid. Then ran for my train. It does state on the website that you can pay on the train the difference or at a ticket office.
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,382
Location
Reading
Does it make any difference if the restrictions were made clear or not?

Unlikely based on what has been written here so far, but there may still be avenues that could lead to successful prosecution.
 

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
Unlikely based on what has been written here so far, but there may still be avenues that could lead to successful prosecution.

Please could you explain. Will I just be able to pay a fine? I did have a ticket just the wrong type
 

furlong

Established Member
Joined
28 Mar 2013
Messages
2,382
Location
Reading
Please could you explain. Will I just be able to pay a fine? I did have a ticket just the wrong type

Wait for a letter - which could take a few weeks to arrive - and don't panic when you get it, as the letters can sometimes seem formal and scary! People here will probably be willing to help with your reply. Based just on what you've told us here, the consensus seems to be that only the difference in fares is due to the company.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Such as if the OP had been made aware that their ticket wasn't valid at that time, but used it anyway - it could be seen as intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

(One example: if the inspector had been presented with a ticket bought from a ticket office just before 4pm or stamped 'Restrictions Advised' they might have considered there were ample grounds for investigation.)
 

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
Ok thank you for your advice. I am happy to pay the fine if that is what it comes to but I am more worried about having a criminal record.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
53,327
Location
Yorkshire
Ok thank you for your advice. I am happy to pay the fine if that is what it comes to but I am more worried about having a criminal record.
If what you say is true I would send them nothing more than the difference in fares.

I would not say "I am happy to pay the fine"; it sounds like an admission of wrongdoing!

From what you said earlier, you didn't do anything that would warrant anything more than an excess fare to be charged. A fine for a successful prosecution under the Railway Byelaws would be a criminal offence, albeit an unrecordable one. See RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal for full details.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
65,708
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The question is what you might have done or said to cause them to ask you for your name and address. If the only problem was use of an off-peak ticket at a time of day it was not valid, you should just have been charged the difference, under the conditions of carriage paragraph 12.

I don't think Northern RPIs have any ability to sell excess fares. Thus, the likely outcome is that the OP will receive an Unpaid Fares Notice for the excess fare. If this is the case, pay it promptly and that will be that.

It's an incredibly clunky and awkward (and costly) way for them to do it, but they do seem to like to do it that way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Such as if the OP had been made aware that their ticket wasn't valid at that time, but used it anyway - it could be seen as intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

How would that be proven beyond reasonable doubt?
 
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,040
Location
Scotland
How would that be proven beyond reasonable doubt?
As Furlong said, if it was bought from a ticket window and the ticket was either marked "Restrictions advised" or the person who sold the ticket was able to remember advising the customer of the restrictions, alternatively if bought online or from a TVM, the passenger was presented with a message saying when the ticket was valid (I don't know if they do so).

I have no specific reason to believe that this applies in this case.
 
Last edited:

Yorkshire7

Member
Joined
11 May 2016
Messages
13
I probably worded that incorrectly, I mean if they feel the innocent and easy mistake I have made is due a fine then I shall pay it to bring this to an end. I will not argue that case as that is the procedure and policy. However yesterday, I was in a rush with several shopping bags, I bought a single ticket without even checking the time and certainly did not read/hear anything about travel restrictions. And simply ran for my train. I hardly slept last night thinking it over and over in my head, I buy a season ticket every week to go to work, I am not a fare dodger. It is really twisting me up inside at the thought of it going any further, especially over my confusion with my address which was an utter moment of panic in a very stressful situation.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,040
Location
Scotland
It is really twisting me up inside at the thought of it going any further, especially over my confusion with my address which was an utter moment of panic in a very stressful situation.
If what you've posted here is a true reflection of the facts then you don't have much to worry about. You corrected the address straight away so it would be hard for them to make the case that you failed to provide your address.
 

185143

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2013
Messages
3,466
Isnt the ticket office at Levenshulme still open at that time? If so, it would be interesting to know why you weren't directed to that!

If you get 'offered' to pay the excess fare+a fine, I would strongly advise you not to pay the fine. Assuming everything is as you have made out-and I have no reason to believe it isn't-then it would be a breach of the NRCoC.

Although, if you take that advice, were the RPIs stood before or after the ticket office when leaving the platforms?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
 

gray1404

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2014
Messages
5,294
Location
Merseyside
I would take the view that the RPI should have charged the excess to the customer or directed them to the ticket office to be able to do that. If there was no open ticket office and the RPI was unable to take payment of an excess, then they should have just left the matter as is. We do of course know that Northern to not have a team of professionally trained RPIs and their way of thinking that anyone with a ticket that is not 100% by default gets reported. Rant over!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top