Off peak fares oddity, Southampton-Brighton

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AndyLandy

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I was recently looking at Southampton-Brighton fares for a friend (there's another thread about it if you're interested) and I spotted an oddity.

One of the things we looked at was the possibility of travelling early morning on a Monday, but we weren't sure whether Southern consider trains on the West Coastway as having a peak period.

TheTrainLine app on my phone suggested that on a morning service, you'd need an Anytime fare routed via Barnham (so they do count it as peak, fair enough), but apparently an Off Peak fare routed 'Not London' is still valid on these services.

The whole thing just struck me as odd. Is there some easement on the Off peak 'Not London' fare that's not present on the via Barnham one?
 
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calc7

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I was recently looking at Southampton-Brighton fares for a friend (there's another thread about it if you're interested) and I spotted an oddity.

One of the things we looked at was the possibility of travelling early morning on a Monday, but we weren't sure whether Southern consider trains on the West Coastway as having a peak period.

TheTrainLine app on my phone suggested that on a morning service, you'd need an Anytime fare routed via Barnham (so they do count it as peak, fair enough), but apparently an Off Peak fare routed 'Not London' is still valid on these services.

The whole thing just struck me as odd. Is there some easement on the Off peak 'Not London' fare that's not present on the via Barnham one?

Hmm, looking at this: http://brfares.com/#fares?orig=SOU&dest=BTN&rlc= it appears as though both flows are priced by Southern and carry identical restrictions. I would go and check the TheTrainLine but I find it hideous to use.

There are plenty of examples of flows where one ticket may be unrestricted and the other may be quite restricted. Unrestricted (or 2T "valid after 0415") Off-Peak Returns tend to exist to allow an Anytime fare to exist which guards can charge to passengers travelling on the wrong train on an Advance ticket or without the correct railcard. Many CrossCountry-priced flows carrying the garish 2V restriction (valid after 0930) can be circumvented with a bit of trial and error to try and get Virgin-, FGW- or EC-priced flows.
 

sonic2009

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I can't see an Off Peak day return not via London on the app until after 0900.

But i see the higher any permitted Off Peak day return fare for £36.75, which is offered on west coastway services, this ticket carries restriction code UT http://brfares.com/#faredetail?orig...=on&flow=0&multi=0&fare=5&rte=0&ldn=1&tkt=CDR.

Which i think only applies if traveling via Clapham Junction or London Terminals which then the ticket is only valid on trains timed to arrive at 1000 or after.

This would be if you were to travel :

Southampton - Winchester - Clapham Junction - Gatwick Airport - Brighton




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yorkie

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Is there some easement on the Off peak 'Not London' fare that's not present on the via Barnham one?
Are you wanting to compare the validity of Southampton - Brighton Off Peak Returns (SVR) Route Barnham and Route Not London?

If so:

http://brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SOU&dest=BTN&rlc= &rte=947&ldn=0&tkt=SVR

http://brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SOU&dest=BTN&rlc= &rte=700&ldn=0&tkt=SVR

They both have the restriction code 4B.

If it's Off Peak Day returns you want to compare, then the restriction code for both is B3 which is simply "By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0900" and there are no restrictions on when you can return.
 

wintonian

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From arround here (southampton/ Eastleigh/ Basingstoke) there are genraly 2 or 3 routes for destinations Chichester - Brighton and beyond these are:

Barnham (I think at some point going east this changes to route Ford but not until after Brighton IIRC.)
Must travel via Barnham along the west coast way,

Not London
All permitted routes that do not pass through London, therefore allowing routes via Barnham and Clapham Junction

+Any permitted (becomes available around Worthing)
All the above plus routes passing through London terminal. i.e. Waterloo and Victoria.

Using a route +any permitted ticket I believe also allows you to double back through Clapham Junction (from Waterloo or Victoria as appropriate to the out or return portion) by easement I believe.

The not London fares can be particularly good value in allowing a round trip over quite a large geographical area.


This is off the top of my head so may not be error free.
 

AndyLandy

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I can't find exactly the same set of conditions today, but something similar:



The 0833 return is via Barnham, but isn't valid with an Offpeak ticket routed via Barnham. But it is valid with an Offpeak routed "Any permitted". Of course, the Offpeak "Any permitted" is substantially more expensive than just getting a pair of Anytime singles via Barnham, so would be an unlikely choice of ticket for this route.

I just find it odd that the route counts as 'off peak' with a certain type of ticket but not a different one.
 

bb21

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I just find it odd that the route counts as 'off peak' with a certain type of ticket but not a different one.

This "oddity" happens as there is no definition of "peak" or "off-peak" per se. Each ticket has its own associated time restrictions and the so-called simplification only made it worse now that we have essentially different tickets all given the same name.
 

AndyLandy

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This "oddity" happens as there is no definition of "peak" or "off-peak" per se. Each ticket has its own associated time restrictions and the so-called simplification only made it worse now that we have essentially different tickets all given the same name.

Ahh yes, "Simplification". An excuse to kill off some popular cheaper fares (Weren't Apex and Awaybreak victims of this?) only to leave you with exactly the same complicated mess as before with the rest of the ticketing system, but now hidden behind a whole host of tickets having the same name.

I particularly like how TheTrainLine describes all three of those fares as "Any off-peak train", even though the top two are certainly not "Any" with their routeing restrictions.
 

calc7

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Truth be told, I actually book all my rail fares through RedSpottedHanky, but I still instintively do my initial research with TheTrainLine. No idea why, old habits die hard I guess!

In my opinion, WebTIS-based booking engines such as EastCoast and Redspottedhanky are better for research purposes. This is because they list trains-by-fare rather than fares-by-train so it is much easier to see which services a particular ticket is applicable to.
 

AndyLandy

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In my opinion, WebTIS-based booking engines such as EastCoast and Redspottedhanky are better for research purposes. This is because they list trains-by-fare rather than fares-by-train so it is much easier to see which services a particular ticket is applicable to.

I think I agree with you. That's what makes my "default-to-TTL" even more unlikely!

Even so, it's still always worth checking some of these other sites, I've had a few occasions where some advance fares have only been offered by a subset of booking engines.
 

yorkie

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I just find it odd that the route counts as 'off peak' with a certain type of ticket but not a different one.
Each ticket has a restriction code. It's not at all uncommon for the restriction code for a ticket routed via X may have a different restriction code than for a ticket routed via Y, even if the origin & destination are the same.

I particularly like how TheTrainLine describes all three of those fares as "Any off-peak train", even though the top two are certainly not "Any" with their routeing restrictions.
It's worded in a silly way. An "off peak train" is only an "off peak train" in the context of the specific ticket that any particular customer holds.

For example the 1733 Kings Cross - Harrogate is a "off peak train" for someone holding the rtn portion of a Harrogate - London Terminals Off Peak Return, it is also an "off peak train" for someone holding the outward or return portion of a Bristol - Stevenage Off Peak Return (to give just 2 examples out of many) but there are many more other tickets for which this train would not be an "off peak train".

A York - London Terminals Off Peak Return is valid on the 1650 Kings Cross - Sunderland service if it is routed Any Permitted, but not if it is routed GC Only, despite the origin & destination & ticket name (type) all being the same and this is also despite National Rail claiming that the "name" of a ticket "describes when" it is valid.

There are several claims made by The Trainline, National Rail Enquiries, etc that are, at best, misleading.
 

bb21

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For the benefit of those people who have not seen it before, here is an example of the confusion caused by differing meanings of the term "Off-Peak".
 

34D

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One of the things we looked at was the possibility of travelling early morning on a Monday, but we weren't sure whether Southern consider trains on the West Coastway as having a peak period.

Don't forget that this current Monday is a bank holiday.

Also its not routes that may have a peak restriction, but tickets.
 

wintonian

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Don't forget that this current Monday is a bank holiday.

Also its not routes that may have a peak restriction, but tickets.

Not quite true,

There are various tickets that have a restriction code which include something along the lines of for example; "if travelling via Salisbury, Westbury etc.. refer to code Q8" or "if travelling via Oxford use code 2V2".

So yes, first and foremost restrictions apply to individual tickets which may then depend on the route being taken.
 

island

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For the benefit of those people who have not seen it before, here is an example of the confusion caused by differing meanings of the term "Off-Peak".

You should see the one I wrote about Milton Keynes!
 

MKD

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Just a couple of thoughts re thread discussions:

If travelling from Southampton to/from Brighton consider an online Southern Downlander (valid 9:30am+ working weekdays, all day-otherwise, including some Brighton buses) for just £10 if bought 2 days in advance.
http://www.southernrailwaytickets.com/main.php?page_id=281

If buying tickets online suggest using TopCashBack to get to Southern Railways and get 6% back on the purchases, eventually (as well as no fees) - and get benefit of their RainyDayGuarantee on some TODs.
http://www.topcashback.co.uk/southern-railway/

MKD
 
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johnnycache

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this is very interesting

i have tried southampton to brighton at about 0700 one day and returning at 0700 the next day and national rail enquiries quotes off-peak return £62.20

as you say it is cheaper to buy 2 x anytime singles at £14.90 but even so its an off-peak ticket with apparently no time restrictions

i think it must be because the time restriction is expressed as an arrival time or departure time at/from london http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_UT.pdf and if the train doesn't start from or go to london it is deemed to be permitted
 
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