Off Peak Return

[Cesarcollie]

I had to travel from Wickford to Manchester (returning same day) yesterday. The previous day I went onto the Greater Anglia website, picked the journeys I was planning to use, and purchased a ticket. This involved arriving Liverpool Street around 0900, then 0953 from Euston. The website offered singles, but also an off peak return (listing the other departures on which it was valid). As this was the cheapest and gave me flexibility, I purchased the return, and saved the itinerary on my phone.

Due to a cacellation and late running I actually arrived Liverpool Street about 0930. The barrier didn’t open with my ticket (not uncommon), so,I found the nearest staff member. This turned out (apparently) to be a ticket inspecto. He said my ticket wasn’t valid for arrivals in London before 1000. Itold him I’d booked on the website- he said I’d selected the wrong fare, I showed him the itinerary - he wasn’t interested. He said if I carried on ‘arguing’ he would ‘penalty fare me’. I wasn’t arguing - I didn’t raise my voice and I was perfectly polite. I was fairly certain given the itinerary I’d selected the ticket was valid, but not 100%. He kept repeating that he was a ticket inspector and therefore knew the rules. I was deseparate to get to Euston for the 0953 otherwise would have asked for a manager. Anyway, after several minutes he told a gate line assistant to let me through, but was clearly of the view he was doing me a big favour. I’ve read on here about the ‘attitude test’. I’m afraid on this occasion any attitude was entirely his!

on the way home I checked the ticket restriction code (9l) and there is no obvious restriction for arriving at Liverpool Street in the morning peak.

i then asked at the information kiosk when passing back through in the evening. The gentleman there agreed with the ticket inspector, saying not valid on arrivals before 1000. I showed him the itinerary from the GA website. He said ‘that’s wrong’. We keep telling ‘them’ it’s wrong (presumably ‘them’ means the management).

So - I didn’t have to pay any penalty - but it was very disconcerting being made to feel like a fare dodger. Why does the GA website issue tickets for set journey times if they’re not valid? Or are both staff members wrong and the website correct. And if the latter, surely a Liverpool Street ticket inspector should know the rules?

 

[mikeg]

Both staff members were wrong, the restriction is on arriving into London Liverpool Street before 1000 on the return portion, not the outward. In addition, there are restrictions only on departure time on the outward.
In any case, for purposes of contract law if an itinerary is provided with the booking, it must be honoured irrespective of normal validity. This applies even where the restriction code is contradicted by the itinerary for that itinerary only Note this second situation doesn't apply if incorrectly offered by a journey planner booking engine and purchased elsewhere (eg. from a ticket office or a booking engine that obeys the rules properly) - either way this is a moot point as the ticket was sold in accordance with its restrictions.
Furthermore, a penalty fare would not be an appropriate remedy for this situation, an excess should have been charged were the ticket genuinely invalid owing to a time restriction (it was actually valid anyway in this case).

All of this assumes you were using the outward portion of your ticket. I'd be inclined to ask that the members of staff concerned are re-trained with respect to restriction codes and request that a suitable brief is issued to all relevant staff on this matter. I'd also mention that they need reminding that if a National Rail accredited booking engine provides an itinerary in conjunction with a booking, this must be honoured for contractual purposes.

 

[gray1404]

Yes definitely submit a formal complaint to GA about the conduct of the rouge ticket inspector. Feel free to escalate it should they fail to issue reassurance. Let us know how you get on.

The inspector and other colleague are trying to apply restrictions for tickets valid only between Wickford and London. Tickets to Manchester from Wickford have a totally different set of time restrictions.

 

[Hadders]

The members of staff were wrong. The tgicket is valid to use on any train between Wickford and Liverpool Street. the restrictions only apply to the leg from Euston.

Please do raise a formal complaint with Greater Anglia, it's simply unacceptable that passengers get treated like this.

 

[Malaxa]

This welcome thread is generally very educational. From the GA website:

Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Tickets

Save by travelling outside busy commuter times

www.greateranglia.co.uk

"Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets for long-distance journeys via London have various restrictions depending on the journey being made. The time restrictions in the table may not apply. Please check our online booking engine or ask ticket office staff."

This begs the question, where do long distance journeys beyond London start? Obviously well before Manchester. And, by inference, if the journey can be booked on the GA website, the ticket must be valid.
And would gateline staff be expected to know all these somewhat opaque "various restrictions"?

 

[AlterEgo]

I showed him the itinerary - he wasn’t interested. He said if I carried on ‘arguing’ he would ‘penalty fare me’.

You can't be penalty fared for this anyway, even if the ticket is used at the wrong time. The appropriate remedy is an excess fare. (But your ticket was of course valid).

I wasn’t arguing - I didn’t raise my voice and I was perfectly polite. I was fairly certain given the itinerary I’d selected the ticket was valid, but not 100%. He kept repeating that he was a ticket inspector and therefore knew the rules. I was deseparate to get to Euston for the 0953 otherwise would have asked for a manager. Anyway, after several minutes he told a gate line assistant to let me through, but was clearly of the view he was doing me a big favour. I’ve read on here about the ‘attitude test’. I’m afraid on this occasion any attitude was entirely his!

I would write and complain about this. Oddly enough I have just had cause to write and complain to a TOC about a member of staff for the first time ever, and it was about a Greater Anglia RPI who was rude and obstructive to a friend and I last week - as well as wrong, and not knowing their own tickets or rules.

So - I didn’t have to pay any penalty - but it was very disconcerting being made to feel like a fare dodger. Why does the GA website issue tickets for set journey times if they’re not valid? Or are both staff members wrong and the website correct.

Indeed, both members of staff were wrong, and, frankly, rude to you. You are right and they are wrong. Many such cases sadly.

And if the latter, surely a Liverpool Street ticket inspector should know the rules?

Haha. Bless you.

 

[jfollows]

This begs the question, where do long distance journeys beyond London start? Obviously well before Manchester. And, by inference, if the journey can be booked on the GA website, the ticket must be valid.
And would gateline staff be expected to know all these somewhat opaque "various restrictions"?

Because the ticket has a restriction code which both you and gateline staff can look up. The fact that gateline staff prefer not to and instead make up the rules according to their view of how they think things should be seems to me to be indicative both of poor training and poor management.

 

[furlong]

This begs the question, where do long distance journeys beyond London start? Obviously well before Manchester.

It's based on the former Network SouthEast area - roughly speaking, the restrictions only apply to the leg that crosses the boundary. See for example https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-network-area-rule.245511/

 

[Haywain]

It's based on the former Network SouthEast area - roughly speaking, the restrictions only apply to the leg that crosses the boundary. See for example https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-network-area-rule.245511/

Except that is no longer anything like universal.

 

[AdamWW]

Except that is no longer anything like universal.

But of course what is still universal is that the validity of a ticket is determined by the restriction code, despite what a fair number of staff appear to believe (and perhaps have been trained to think).

 

[Haywain]

But of course what is still universal is that the validity of a ticket is determined by the restriction code, despite what a fair number of staff appear to believe (and perhaps have been trained to think).

The comment that I replied to referred to the erstwhile Network area rule, and it is that to which my comment refers.

 

[Timetraveller]

9i restriction says its not valid on trains timed to depart Stratford (London) after 0429 and before 0930.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

9i restriction says its not valid on trains timed to depart Stratford (London) after 0429 and before 0930.

What if the train from Wickford into London Liverpool Street is booked as 'set down only' at Stratford (London)?

 

[Haywain]

What if the train from Wickford into London Liverpool Street is booked as 'set down only' at Stratford (London)?

The it won't have a departure time. But that is pretty much the point - the restriction from Stratford is intended for journeys away from London. In any event, I don't believe a journey planner would apply the restriction even if the train had a departure time at Stratford but was boarded at Wickford.

 

[AlterEgo]

The it won't have a departure time. But that is pretty much the point - the restriction from Stratford is intended for journeys away from London. In any event, I don't believe a journey planner would apply the restriction even if the train had a departure time at Stratford but was boarded at Wickford.

This, basically.

9I is as old as the hills and was a frequent source of passenger enquiries (and gateline malpractice) when I worked at Virgin over ten years ago. It is valid on longer journeys from East Anglia and the journey planners create itineraries correctly, as intended. The OP was certainly in the right here.

 

[cvs]

The members of staff were wrong. The tgicket is valid to use on any train between Wickford and Liverpool Street. the restrictions only apply to the leg from Euston.

Please do raise a formal complaint with Greater Anglia, it's simply unacceptable that passengers get treated like this.

Agree. Please note down a chronology of what happened, who was present and times. Lodge a complaint. Mention about the distress caused to you in front of other public. Wait for response, if not happy ask for deadlock letter to go to Ombudsman. I just received a favourable judgement from Rail Ombudsman against WMR with a reasonable compensation of £150.00, thanks my reading through this forum. Query to senior members, can I mention my experience in this thread?

For a similar episode

 

[WesternLancer]

I just received a favourable judgement from Rail Ombudsman against WMR with a reasonable compensation of £150.00, thanks my reading through this forum. Query to senior members, can I mention my experience in this thread?

For a similar episode

I would start a new thread detailing your experience - might be useful for others in the future to read and easier if it has it's own thread. Sounds like you have concluded matters successfully - but I don't think this part of the forum is just for people needing advice.

The Rail Ombudsman does not have a strong reputation on here for finding in favour of wronged customers - but it sounds like in this case your complaint was upheld - so I would think forum regulars will be interested to read about that.

 

[gray1404]

Agree. Please note down a chronology of what happened, who was present and times. Lodge a complaint. Mention about the distress caused to you in front of other public. Wait for response, if not happy ask for deadlock letter to go to Ombudsman. I just received a favourable judgement from Rail Ombudsman against WMR with a reasonable compensation of £150.00, thanks my reading through this forum. Query to senior members, can I mention my experience in this thread?

For a similar episode

Standard forum practice would be for you to start your own thread and tell us about your experience and outcome.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Standard forum practice would be for you to start your own thread and tell us about your experience and outcome.

Thanks everyone for your help. I will write to GA initially and see what happens.

 

[AdamWW]

The comment that I replied to referred to the erstwhile Network area rule, and it is that to which my comment refers.

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

 

[miami]

The it won't have a departure time. But that is pretty much the point - the restriction from Stratford is intended for journeys away from London. In any event, I don't believe a journey planner would apply the restriction even if the train had a departure time at Stratford but was boarded at Wickford.

It may be intended, however the restriction text do not convey that intention.

If the passenger can ignore "obvious" problems, why can't Mr Gateline

This would leave it with the itinerary as the only form of defence that the ticket is valid

Presumably the correct solution is to change the wording on the 9i conditions to what it actually intends (whatever that intention is -- is it intended to apply to say a train from Stratford on the North London Line, which I'd assume would be a valid route - through to Willesden Junction then up the DC lines to Watford and change to the WCML)

 

[yorkie]

9i restriction says its not valid on trains timed to depart Stratford (London) after 0429 and before 0930.

This is not relevant, as the customer is not boarding a train at Stratford.

Electronic restrictions apply to the boarding point (departure time), alighting point (arrival time) and can also apply to the arrival time at the final destination of the train. Any other times are not relevant and are not used by journey planners.

Agree. Please note down a chronology of what happened, who was present and times. Lodge a complaint. Mention about the distress caused to you in front of other public. Wait for response, if not happy ask for deadlock letter to go to Ombudsman. I just received a favourable judgement from Rail Ombudsman against WMR with a reasonable compensation of £150.00, thanks my reading through this forum. Query to senior members, can I mention my experience in this thread?

For a similar episode

That is great to her! Please do post a new thread, and feel free to link to it from here (and also in future if there are any other directly relevant threads where it's worth referring to).

 

[Cesarcollie]

This is not relevant, as the customer is not boarding a train at Stratford.

Electronic restrictions apply to the boarding point (departure time), alighting point (arrival time) and can also apply to the arrival time at the final destination of the train. Any other times are not relevant and are not used by journey planners.


That is great to her! Please do post a new thread, and feel free to link to it from here (and also in future if there are any other directly relevant threads where it's worth referring to).

Well here's the reply. GA customer services appear to not know the rules either (based on what has been said above). What now?

Thank you for contacting Greater Anglia Customer Relations regarding your recent journey from Wickford to Manchester on 07/10/2024 at 08:19.

Firstly, I would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused as I can appreciate situations like this can be frustrating.

In regards to your off-peak ticket I can confirm that off-peak tickets are not valid for entering London before 10am.

The website would have offered the off-peak ticket along with the peak time ticket as when searching for your journey results for both off-peak and peak arrival times for your final destination are shown (please see attached) and thus offering both tickets types. Therefore when attempting to pass through the barriers at London Liverpool Street station station members we correctly when informing that your ticket was not valid for travel into London before 10am.

In relation to your comments regarding a member of staff at the ticket barriers within London Liverpool Street station.

I am sorry to learn of the events that occurred. We expect our staff to be as helpful as possible at all times and to assist our customers in a courteous manner.

We always aim to offer the highest level of customer service to ensure that journeys are as easy and as pleasant as possible and I am disappointed to hear that this was not reflected in your experience.

All staff receive full training and this continues throughout their career with Greater Anglia. They receive full support in their roles and are encouraged to seek help from line managers to ensure that they provide the standard of service our customers expect.

Please be assured that I have forwarded your comments to the appropriate station manager who will investigate further.

I’m afraid the Data Protection Act prevents me from advising any further details regarding the actions taken against the staff member in question. I can however assure you that this matter will be treated with the utmost seriousness and the appropriate action taken.

I appreciate that delays for any reason are frustrating and can cause inconvenience.

Every effort is made to operate all trains as advertised despite the many problems that can and unfortunately do occasionally arise, including infrastructure defects, train failures, and other unpredictable operational issues. These often cause unavoidable knock-on effects that can put trains and their crews out of position on the track.

When disruption occurs, we endeavour to keep customers informed and seek to rectify any issues as quickly as possible to keep disruption of our customer's journeys to a minimum.

A separate email will be sent with a form to allow you to securely enter your BACs' transfer information, allowing a compensation payment of £10.00, based on your off-peak return ticket and our delay repay guarantee, to be made for the delay you experience on your recent journey due to the issues you experienced at the ticket barrier.

Once again, thank you for contacting Greater Anglia, should you need any further assistance in the future, please get back in touch.

Kind regards,

Ross
Customer Relations
Greater Anglia

 

[yorkie]

A laughable response; they are completely wrong and do not understand the basics of how ticket restrictions work.

Ask if you are in "deadlock" and then go to the Rail Ombudsman.

 

[AlterEgo]

That’s very funny. One for the scrapbook.

Best to escalate this via Twitter. I did so recently with a similar complaint and it was rectified promptly.

 

[Coolzac]

That's unbelievable. I find it incredible that the railway industry can be so bad when it comes to basic customer service and inventing rules. The government need to do something to bring the railway companies into line with these sorts of issues.

 

[Hadders]

That's awful from Greater Anglia. Extremely disappoint to as a few years ago I sent them a series of questions about off peak ticket validity and they got all the answers right!

I would reply saying that you believe the response if incorrect and that you want to escalate it to a senior manager for further investigation and comment under swection 5.2 of their Complaints Handling Procedure.

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/media/12083/download?inline

5.2 Complaint escalation procedure When a customer is dissatisfied with an initial response and they contact the Contact Centre again, the complaint will be referred to a senior person who has not previously been involved in the case to undertake a review of the complaint. You can appeal to the Rail Ombudsman if you are: Unhappy with our final response to your complaint, which will be given in a letter or email (sometimes called a ‘deadlock letter’) or We haven’t settled your complaint within 40 working days of receiving it, and no more than 12 months have passed since we sent you our final response. There are some complaints that the Rail Ombudsman won’t be able to look into ( for example if it’s about industry policy, the way one of our services has been designed, or something that happened before the Rail Ombudsman service was established). If that’s the case they will contact you to let you know. If possible, they will transfer your complaint to another organisation that may be able to help you, such as Transport Focus or London TravelWatch. They will independently review your complaint and, where appropriate, follow things up on your behalf.

 

[ianBR]

You should be demanding 150 quid admin fee for the time you’ve had to spend dealing with the incompetence

If only rail companies faced prosecutions and fines for all the mistakes their staff make on a daily basis

 

[Coolzac]

You should be demanding 150 quid admin fee for the time you’ve had to spend dealing with the incompetence

If only rail companies faced prosecutions and fines for all the mistakes their staff make on a daily basis

Absolutely. When customers make mistakes, they can be prosecuted. When staff make mistakes, they are barely even corrected and if they are, it's an apology and maybe a £10 rail voucher.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Absolutely. When customers make mistakes, they can be prosecuted. When staff make mistakes, they are barely even corrected and if they are, it's an apology and maybe a £10 rail voucher.

Well I escalated as suggested and the response was almost immediate:

Thank you for the recent email and letter you sent to our contact centre.

My name is xxx xxx and I work within the Senior Customer Contacts Team here in Norwich. The contact centre have shared your correspondence with me and I wanted to make direct contact as quickly as possible.

Please allow me to begin by offering my most sincere apologies for the inconvenience you were caused owing to our staff providing the incorrect information. This is not acceptable and is far from the level of customer service we would expect. All of our staff are highly trained in both ticketing and customer service and therefore it is with deep regret we have not met your expectations, or our own.

The ticket you were using to Manchester was valid as you are aware, and staff should have been able to check this without delay. As you will appreciate, there are thousands of ticket combinations in the national rail booking system, all of which have differing restrictions. Our Revenue and station staff all receive ticket training and therefore this is quite an isolated incident as it is very rare they would misinform a customer. We have acted quickly in regards to the incident and one of our Revenue Protection Managers is dealing with this matter directly internally.

Whilst I cannot disclose the action taken or training that is offered due to data protection, I can assure you that this is being addressed. The Inspector will be spoken to and made aware of the error, and a brief will also be provided to customer service staff so that we can prevent this from happening again.

I do understand that this has caused you great inconvenience and I am genuinely sorry about that. Whilst it cannot make up for the experience you had, I would like to refund your ticket in full by way of a bacs payment. In addition, I would also like to offer you a future complimentary return journey on the Greater Anglia network (a return to London for example).

So that I can make the bacs payment, please can you confirm your account holder name, number and sort code? I will then set the payment up so it is in your account within the next 20 days, although it is usually faster. In addition, the complimentary journey is open and you are welcome to use this whenever you wish. Please just give me one weeks notice and let me know the journey information/dates so that I can then post this out to you.

I can only apologise once again for this awful experience and I hope that it does not deter you from using our services again in the future.

Thank you for taking the time to make us aware of the incidents.

Regards,

So they have acknowledged their mistakes. Still alarming that THREE members of staff can be so wrong ~ a ticket inspector, guy on information desk, and the first responder from customer services. And whilst it is true there are lots of tickets, off peak returns for travel outside the NSE area must be quite common on the gate line at Liverpool Street?

Anyway, I may respond further, but thanks for your help everyone!