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Ohio Train Fire 4/2/23

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Jan Mayen

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Ohio train: Huge fire breaks out after derailment​


Ohio train: Huge fire breaks out after derailment

Emergency crews arrived at the scene of a large fire caused by the derailment of a train in East Palestine, a village in the US state of Ohio.
The local mayor announced a state of emergency, noting the train was carrying "hazardous materials".
Those living with in a mile (1.6km) of the fire were ordered to evacuate as a precaution.
 
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eldomtom2

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Wonder what will happen when a train derails in the wrong place and the US gets its own Lac-Mégantic.
 

ac6000cw

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Wonder what will happen when a train derails in the wrong place and the US gets its own Lac-Mégantic.
They've long had restrictions on carriage of hazardous/dangerous goods through major urban areas (which mostly came in after 9-11), and various regulation changes relating to the design of tank cars and phasing out older tank cars in the wake of Lac-Mégantic and other crude oil train derailments.

So I suspect all that might happen is more of the same.

Just a random thought - to cut down the risks of a whole set of tank cars catching fire etc. it might be sensible to distribute them along a mixed freight train rather than grouping them together in block - in a 2+ mile long train that would space apart a handful of hazardous chemical cars reasonably well. There might already be train makeup rules limiting the number of hazardous material cars that can be grouped together in a train (there have been other derailments triggering fires or serious leaks involving chemicals over the years).
 

eldomtom2

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They've long had restrictions on carriage of hazardous/dangerous goods through major urban areas (which mostly came in after 9-11), and various regulation changes relating to the design of tank cars and phasing out older tank cars in the wake of Lac-Mégantic and other crude oil train derailments.
But you're talking about crude oil. How much of these rules apply to vinyl chloride, which apparently is in a lower class with more relaxed rules than crude oil?
 

bazzarati

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I can't believe they burned off Vinyl Chloride. Not done chemistry since A-Level, but combusting it will produce Hydro chloric acid in addition to what other waste products that could all be toxic, carcinogenic etc. It's nothing short of a disgrace that this was allowed and seen as less risky than an explosion.

Apparently they are in the 10-50 ppm range .... insane

FonazRGaYAENvGd.jpg



Public water PH tests show tap water as extreme alkaline... all the waterways will be dead. Dead aquatic life everywhere.
 

ac6000cw

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But you're talking about crude oil. How much of these rules apply to vinyl chloride, which apparently is in a lower class with more relaxed rules than crude oil?
I don't know, but if you want to find out I'd start with Google and the FRA and EPA websites. I mentioned the crude oil related rule tightening as you used Lac-Mégantic (a crude oil block train disaster) as an example. The thing about stuff like crude oil, petroleum products and probably ethanol these days is that it often travels in large block/unit trains, increasing the risks in the event of an accident.

I can't believe they burned off Vinyl Chloride. Not done chemistry since A-Level, but combusting it will produce Hydro chloric acid in addition to what other waste products that could all be toxic, carcinogenic etc. It's nothing short of a disgrace that this was allowed and seen as less risky than an explosion.
So what would you have done instead?

My guess is that burning it off was probably considered the least-worst option overall. This was started on Monday, three days after the derailment so there would have been time to get advice from experts in dealing with the chemicals involved.

A quote from a Trains magazine 'Newswire' report (Mike DeWine is the Governor of Ohio). There were five tank cars of vinyl chloride in the train:
DeWine had issued a new evacuation order Sunday night after the temperature rose dramatically in one car, raising fears of an explosion that authorities have said could send debris up to a mile.

Scott Deutsch, Norfolk Southern’s regional manager for hazardous materials, estimated the controlled-release process would take one to three hours and would allow the fumes to disperse more quickly. WTOV-TV reports Deutsch said a small charge will be used to create a hole of 2½ to 3 inches in the tank car. The chemical will then drain into a ditch lined with flares which will be used to control the burn of the material.

“If we don’t do that, the car could continue to polymerize and the entire car will break apart. We can’t control where that goes,” Deutsch said.
 

bazzarati

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I don't know, but if you want to find out I'd start with Google and the FRA and EPA websites. I mentioned the crude oil related rule tightening as you used Lac-Mégantic (a crude oil block train disaster) as an example. The thing about stuff like crude oil, petroleum products and probably ethanol these days is that it often travels in large block/unit trains, increasing the risks in the event of an accident.


So what would you have done instead?

My guess is that burning it off was probably considered the least-worst option overall. This was started on Monday, three days after the derailment so there would have been time to get advice from experts in dealing with the chemicals involved.

A quote from a Trains magazine 'Newswire' report (Mike DeWine is the Governor of Ohio). There were five tank cars of vinyl chloride in the train:
The least worst option would have been to leave it in situ until it was possible to remove it safely. If they waited 3 days why not wait longer? Bury the wagons in sand if you have to.

The impact of releasing that poison into the atmosphere by burning it is terrifying and long lasting. It shouldn't have been allowed.
 

brad465

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I've seen some claims that this story is not getting much press coverage despite its significant impacts; I can understand why not in the UK as it's not a domestic story (although it clearly is getting some coverage here), but can anyone confirm if this is/was the case in the US?
 

eldomtom2

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Some locals are complaining that trains are going too fast and the crews may be fatigued.
My general impression of working conditions for American freight crews is that there's no "may be" about fatigue!
 

gabrielhj07

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I've seen some claims that this story is not getting much press coverage despite its significant impacts; I can understand why not in the UK as it's not a domestic story (although it clearly is getting some coverage here), but can anyone confirm if this is/was the case in the US?
A quick look at the websites fo both Fox & CNN reveals no information about the train.
 

Peter Mugridge

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A quick look at the websites fo both Fox & CNN reveals no information about the train.
A lot of the online talk about the accident suggests that there is the equivalent of a D-Notice in place in the USA, and there's been some stories circulating about reporters being prevented from discussing the accident and even being arrested - although of course we may only be getting a one sided half the story there...

There's certainly a lot more about the accident on the UK news websites than anything based in the USA.
 

eldomtom2

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A lot of the online talk about the accident suggests that there is the equivalent of a D-Notice in place in the USA, and there's been some stories circulating about reporters being prevented from discussing the accident and even being arrested - although of course we may only be getting a one sided half the story there...
That's a bit of an exaggeration - there was one reporter, who has now been released, and there has been coverage by all the major US news networks - though not to the same extent as other current events.

It's also turning into the usual partisan p***match between Democrats and Republicans, which conveniently takes all the heat off the rail companies.
 

Peter Mugridge

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That's a bit of an exaggeration - there was one reporter, who has now been released, and there has been coverage by all the major US news networks - though not to the same extent as other current events.
So all these stories are actually relating to the one reporter? That's certainly not clear from looking at them!

Out of curiosity, what did he do to get arrested? Breach a cordon or something?
 

eldomtom2

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Out of curiosity, what did he do to get arrested? Breach a cordon or something?
  • Police alleged that Lambert was talking loudly while DeWine was speaking and that he got into an argument with the Ohio National Guard commander. Lambert's attorney strongly rejected the police account and called claims that he was aggressive "patently false," per NewsNation.
 

Parjon

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I can't believe they burned off Vinyl Chloride. Not done chemistry since A-Level, but combusting it will produce Hydro chloric acid in addition to what other waste products that could all be toxic, carcinogenic etc. It's nothing short of a disgrace that this was allowed and seen as less risky than an explosion.

Apparently they are in the 10-50 ppm range .... insane

FonazRGaYAENvGd.jpg



Public water PH tests show tap water as extreme alkaline... all the waterways will be dead. Dead aquatic life everywhere.
Can you explain the table? Is the stuff at the bottom of it worse than the stuff at the top?

I don't know whether explosion or burning off would be least bad, but surely evacuation regardless!!!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I've seen some claims that this story is not getting much press coverage despite its significant impacts; I can understand why not in the UK as it's not a domestic story (although it clearly is getting some coverage here), but can anyone confirm if this is/was the case in the US?
Looks like it's a big story now...

A public meeting that was meant to ease fears about a toxic chemical spill in an Ohio town only heightened anger when the rail firm at the heart of the disaster failed to show up.
Representatives of the Norfolk Southern railway company, whose train carrying the chemicals derailed 13 days ago causing a huge fire, cited security concerns when they pulled out.
After the derailment, emergency crews performed a controlled release of vinyl chloride from five railcars that were at risk of exploding.
Thick plumes of black smoke towered over the town, East Palestine, but crews monitoring the air quality sought to reassure locals that it was going as planned.
Despite those assurances from officials, many residents say they continued to be frightened of the potential harms, which they say had impacted humans and wildlife alike.
Thousands of dead fish have appeared in the creeks in the town, while people told local media that their chickens had died suddenly, and that their pets had fallen ill.
Many have reported difficulties getting their water tested, fuelling mistrust at what they see as an ineffective and inadequate response to the crisis.

NS was apparently concerned for the safety of its staff at the public meeting, and appear to evading being interrogated about the derailment.
 

HSTEd

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The least worst option would have been to leave it in situ until it was possible to remove it safely. If they waited 3 days why not wait longer? Bury the wagons in sand if you have to.

The impact of releasing that poison into the atmosphere by burning it is terrifying and long lasting. It shouldn't have been allowed.
The problem is what do you if the vehicle fails catastrophically and you end up with a runaway polymerisation, explosion and massive release of the entire contents of the vehicle to the environment?

You end up having to chose between a substantial release of hydrogen chloride and small quantities of phosgene, or mass release of vinyl chloride.

Hydrogen chloride is probably less of a long term hazard.
 

158756

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There is a video which appears to show sparks or fire on the train 20 miles before the derailment


Could be a similar cause to the big fire near Swansea a few years ago - that was lucky it wasn't in a more populated spot.

The NTSB have published a list of the contents of the cars in and adjacent to the derailment. Lots of nasty stuff in there. https://u7061146.ct.sendgrid.net/ls...kvUM-2BArK2Yho7NjGM-2FQIDY8zxdMdYcP4YYw-3D-3D
 

LOL The Irony

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The official line from the government appears to be that 1000 trains derail every year, so this is normal. Yes, but these are usually low speed and in a yard, causing minimal damage. I wonder how many of those 1000 derailments result in the release of vinyl chloride...
 

eldomtom2

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And the flip side of that is, of course, that America is not a world leader when it comes to rail safety and that number of derailments could be brought down.

And to add to that, it seems the number of hazmat derailments has not decreased for a long time now - in fact it actually increased in the past five years, though that is suspected to be due to systemic underreporting.
 
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randyrippley

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Looks like a lot of acrylate monomers and lubricant oil has leaked. That will destroy the local watercourses and pollute the groundwater boreholes
Going to cause real environmental issues for that town
 

bazzarati

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Workers for Norfolk Southern are now admitting that they had concerns about the train’s size before the accident and that those concerns probably contributed to both the derailment and an earlier failure after the train left Illinois on February 1, according to CBS News. One employee tells the news source that “we shouldn’t be running trains that are 150 car lengths long,” and that “it’s highly probable the impacts of the derailment would have been avoided” if the train hadn’t been so heavy. The train might pose a safety danger, according to two employees who talked with Motherboard.

The former director of the Federal Railroad Administration, Sarah Feinberg, agrees that the size of the train would have been a concern, Wayne Dupree noted.


“I was not satisfied with the lengths of the trains, and they were 80 or 90 cars long,” she says of her tenure at the FRA. The derailed one had 151 cars. Even while adding more cars might make trains more efficient overall for railroad firms, it takes more time for staff to examine such a train. Shorter inspection times in the name of such efficiency, according to Jared Cassity, national legislative director for one of the Norfolk Southern workers unions, made it likely that the car that derailed earlier this month hadn’t been examined “in some time.”

The accident, which was followed by a controlled burn that released a toxic plume into the sky, was, in his words, “expected” given the extra length and weight as well as the presence of all of the hazardous materials. “That will happen again if nothing changes.”

The railroad company has stated that the length of the train was known, managed, and should have been stable. According to the company, the weight distribution of this train was uniform all throughout, and it had a locomotive in the middle of the train that “helps manage the dynamic forces of the train and reduces occurrences of broken knuckles,” according to a statement from Norfolk Southern to WKBN. Norfolk Southern also notes that some of the claims being made about the train’s size are “simply false.”


230205145346-03-train-derailment-east-palestine-super-tease.jpg
 

DelW

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The official line from the government appears to be that 1000 trains derail every year, so this is normal. Yes, but these are usually low speed and in a yard, causing minimal damage. I wonder how many of those 1000 derailments result in the release of vinyl chloride...
Even allowing for the much greater numbers and lengths of freight trains in the US and Canada in comparison with Europe, their tolerance of frequent major derailments does surprise me. At a guess I'd estimate that a major derailment (10 or 20 wagons not just off the road, but piled in heaps, down in rivers, on fire, etc.) occurs pretty much every week on average. RJCorman* seem to have a large fleet of side-boom tractors on standby across most of the country, ready to go in to clear up the mess. They're very quick to rebuild and reopen tracks, no doubt in part because they get so much practice.

(*other contractors are probably available)
 
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