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Oil lamps - what oil?

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AndrewE

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Could you use Methylated Spirit?
No, it is volatile too (like petrol.)
I think Kerosine is the same as paraffin (but not the professional chemists' use of the name paraffins) and it is what "jet" engines run on. Piston-engine planes ran on aviation fuel which I think was highly flammable like petrol - or even worse.
In fact BR used "long-burning oil" which was a special grade of paraffin, maybe relatively pure so that the wicks didn't accumulate char which would have made them bigger, giving a larger flame and running out of fuel quicker.
 
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Whistler40145

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No, it is volatile too (like petrol.)
I think Kerosine is the same as paraffin (but not the professional chemists' use of the name paraffins) and it is what "jet" engines run on. Piston-engine planes ran on aviation fuel which I think was highly flammable like petrol - or even worse.
In fact BR used "long-burning oil" which was a special grade of paraffin, maybe relatively pure so that the wicks didn't accumulate char which would have made them bigger, giving a larger flame and running out of fuel quicker.
I can understand BR using long burning oil with some of the rather remote signals which could've been quite a distance from the nearest Signal Box
 

AndrewE

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I can understand BR using long burning oil with some of the rather remote signals which could've been quite a distance from the nearest Signal Box
I don't think it was just the distance that was being addressed. If there are hundreds of lamps up signal posts in an area then refilling once a week instead of twice would halve the staffing costs. I have done the tests on the oil, but I can't remember if it had to burn for a week or a fortnight!
 

Ken H

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I don't think it was just the distance that was being addressed. If there are hundreds of lamps up signal posts in an area then refilling once a week instead of twice would halve the staffing costs. I have done the tests on the oil, but I can't remember if it had to burn for a week or a fortnight!
why didnt they use electricity to light semaphore signals. i know they did a bit. Are semaphores still naked flame lit or are they all electric now.
 

AndrewE

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Because the system dates from even earlier than when the only electricity in use was for the telegraph! Signal boxes at the side of a steam-worked railway didn't have (or need) any other electricity supplies.
 

Ben.A.98

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why didnt they use electricity to light semaphore signals. i know they did a bit. Are semaphores still naked flame lit or are they all electric now.

I believe they are all electrically lit nowadays, though the power source may be a battery.
 

Foxhunter

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tldr; Use Lamp Oil. Nothing else.

For 5 years I was Lamp Man at my local station on the local heritage railway, deploying 13 lamps around the station from ground mounted shunt dummies to some rather challenging heights on the Inner Homes.

All was fine for 2 years, then, a couple of weeks after we received a new delivery we found that the lamps were fading and sometimes extinguishing, even with plenty of oil in the reservoir. Inspection showed the tip of the wick was completly sooted up, preventing oil from making the last part of its journey from reservoir to flame. For a few months I had to trim the top 10mm of wick every time I put the lamps in. Eventually we gave up, donated the rest of the tank of 'lamp oil' to the engine shed for loco cleaning and got a new delivery of proper lamp oil. Problem solved.

I never found out definately what had gone wrong. My observation was that the faultly batch either had disolved impurities that were left behind when the oil evaporated, or their was a poorer burning oil mixed in that left behind a sooty deposit when burned. I do know that the railway had to change supplier because the old one had stopped selling it due to low demand. And when we did get our delivery of proper lamp oil we had to wait for other customers in the area to order to make it worthwhile sending a tanker down from the midlands.

Proper lamp oil will smell like paraffin, and will self evaporate if spilled. I was told it was a more refined grade of paraffin with fewer impurities.

My understandng is that signal lamp wicks and reservoirs are dimensioned to run for a week so that refilling and re-lighting was a weekly task. When I tried this I found it to be a challenge, I could only reliably achieve 5 days. The bulls eye lens on a signal lamp is very effective, a very small flame (4 mm?) can be seen at a remarkable distance. We also possessed but did not use a couple of lamps that had a bi-metalic strip that drove an electrical contact intended to be wired to a warning indicator in the signal box to show if a lamp was out. (All semaphore signals at the station were visible from the signalbox, so at night the signalman could either observe the aspect directly, or see the backlight/blinder).
 

AndrewE

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My understandng is that signal lamp wicks and reservoirs are dimensioned to run for a week so that refilling and re-lighting was a weekly task. When I tried this I found it to be a challenge, I could only reliably achieve 5 days.
It's possible that nowadays only paraffin / lamp oil is available. With no demand from NR long burning oil won't be produced any more.
 

randyrippley

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why didnt they use electricity to light semaphore signals. i know they did a bit. Are semaphores still naked flame lit or are they all electric now.
because cables suspended along rail tracks are badly exposed to weather and trees.........I remember one snow storm around 1983/4 which felled virtually every telegraph pole along the line between Yeovil and Salisbury
 

randyrippley

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No, it is volatile too (like petrol.)
I think Kerosine is the same as paraffin (but not the professional chemists' use of the name paraffins) and it is what "jet" engines run on. Piston-engine planes ran on aviation fuel which I think was highly flammable like petrol - or even worse.
In fact BR used "long-burning oil" which was a special grade of paraffin, maybe relatively pure so that the wicks didn't accumulate char which would have made them bigger, giving a larger flame and running out of fuel quicker.


Paraffin tends to be used to describe fuels which are more narrowly cut chemically i.e. more tightly refined with a reduced range of impurities, kerosene is less refined, making it cheaper - and smellier, hence the stink at airfields. As fuel within reason they'd be interchangable, maybe with mods to the burners / injectors.
Paraffin is sold in various grades, depending on its flash point
 
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341o2

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NO! NO! NO! Petrol is too flammable for use in these lamps. It will rapidly release vapour from the wick and there is a significant risk that on trying to light the lamp the build-up of vapour would cause an explosion with serious damage to the person applying the light, to say nothing of destroying the lamp.
Paraffin and other "lamp oils" have a much higher 'flash-point' and release vapour at a relatively slow rate, avoiding the build-up of an explosive mixture.

I would also recommend that the container is checked by filling with water prior to filling with paraffin to ensure there are no leaks.

That indeed happened to Gerry Feinnes, he recounted how he topped up his handlamp, lit it and entered a loco cab. In less than a minute it exploded. The driver merely said "That's b---y good paraffin, mate" Gerry had used petrol instead of paraffin
 

John Webb

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Isnt kerosene aviation fuel?

No, it [methylated spirits] is volatile too (like petrol.)
I think Kerosine is the same as paraffin (but not the professional chemists' use of the name paraffins) and it is what "jet" engines run on. Piston-engine planes ran on aviation fuel which I think was highly flammable like petrol - or even worse.
In fact BR used "long-burning oil" which was a special grade of paraffin, maybe relatively pure so that the wicks didn't accumulate char which would have made them bigger, giving a larger flame and running out of fuel quicker.

Aviation Turbine fuel (AVTUR) as used in jet engines is refined Kerosene from the paraffin family. AVGAS is the Petrol equivalent for piston-engine planes and has the highly-flammable characteristics of any petrol.

Could you use Metholated Spirit?
Again, NO. The flashpoint of Methylated Spirit is around +12degC - significantly higher than petrol at -49degC but still lower than paraffin at +24degC or higher depending on grade. And as mentioned in a previous post it burns with a very clean flame and would not produce the required yellow colour which paraffin burns with.

As soon as I can get to St Albans South box (currently immobilised with a medical problem) I'll check what we are currently using.
 
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jmh59

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Finally had a look at our drum of 'signal lamp burning oil' - all it says is is contains aliphatic hydrocarbons which Google reckons is paraffin.
 

AndrewE

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Finally had a look at our drum of 'signal lamp burning oil' - all it says is is contains aliphatic hydrocarbons which Google reckons is paraffin.
...which is probably why a lamp won't burn for a week any more. It will have a much wider mix of chain lengths than lamp oil, let alone long-burning oil.
Lots of fuels and white spirit-like solvents are aliphatic ("straight-chain") hydrocarbons (but petrol has aromatics, i.e. benzene ring compounds in too.)
 

CanalWalker

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Paraffin tends to be used to describe fuels which are more narrowly cut chemically i.e. more tightly refined with a reduced range of impurities, kerosene is less refined, making in cheaper - and smellier, hence the stink at airfields. As fuel within reason they'd be interchangable, maybe with mods to the burners / injectors.
Paraffin is sold in various grades, depending on its flash point

If kerosene is so less volatile than petroleum how is that nearly every jet aeroplane that crashes catches fire whilst the fuel in racing cars very rarely ignites even in the severest shunt?
 

yorkie

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If kerosene is so less volatile than petroleum how is that nearly every jet aeroplane that crashes catches fire whilst the fuel in racing cars very rarely ignites even in the severest shunt?
This is an invalid comparison.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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If kerosene is so less volatile than petroleum how is that nearly every jet aeroplane that crashes catches fire whilst the fuel in racing cars very rarely ignites even in the severest shunt?
How do you think diesel engines work? Diesel is even more viscous than kerosene!

It's a simple question of that racing car fuel tanks are heavily protected and it is feasible to protect them from crashes that are expected to be in two dimensions only (front or sides). It's much harder to protect a fuel tank in an aircraft from rupturing given the three dimensions potentially involved in an aircraft accident, not to mention the fact that atomised fuel will quickly ignite...

It's a total non sequitur I'm afraid!
 

CanalWalker

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How do you think diesel engines work? Diesel is even more viscous than kerosene!

It's a simple question of that racing car fuel tanks are heavily protected and it is feasible to protect them from crashes that are expected to be in two dimensions only (front or sides). It's much harder to protect a fuel tank in an aircraft from rupturing given the three dimensions potentially involved in an aircraft accident, not to mention the fact that atomised fuel will quickly ignite...

It's a total non sequitur I'm afraid!


I think that diesel engines work by compressing air until its temperature is above the ignition point of the fuel then injecting some fuel into the hot air. How do you think they work.

Interestingly the early airships such as the R100, designed for use in the tropics, specified diesel engines because that fuel was considered to be less flammable and hence safer thyan petrol
 

yorkie

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I think that diesel engines work by compressing air until its temperature is above the ignition point of the fuel then injecting some fuel into the hot air. How do you think they work.

Interestingly the early airships such as the R100, designed for use in the tropics, specified diesel engines because that fuel was considered to be less flammable and hence safer thyan petrol
@ForTheLoveOf is not denying any of that.

I don't really see how your post addresses the issues in his post.
It is not a comparison. It is a question
The two are not mutually exclusive, but the answer to your question can be found in post 49
 

yorkie

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He asked me how I though a diesel engine worked so I answered him. Which seems to dadress that issue.
I thought that was a rhetorical question. The pertinent part was what followed; the invalid comparison you asked about was rebutted in the second paragraph of the post in question.
 

John Webb

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If kerosene is so less volatile than petroleum how is that nearly every jet aeroplane that crashes catches fire whilst the fuel in racing cars very rarely ignites even in the severest shunt?
As has been said, it's easer to design a racing car to protect the relatively small amount of fuel in its tank than the tanks carrying the vast amount of fuel in aircraft. In an aircraft crash, if mechanical damage is caused which ruptures a tank, the fuel will be ejected in a shower of fine droplets which will ignite very readily compared to the vapour over a bucket of the stuff - and metal sliding along the ground in a crash inevitably generates sparks which ignites the droplets of fuel.....
Work was carried out around three decades ago with additives to try and make the fuel safer in aircraft crashes, but they were not very successful.
 

CanalWalker

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As has been said, it's easer to design a racing car to protect the relatively small amount of fuel in its tank than the tanks carrying the vast amount of fuel in aircraft. In an aircraft crash, if mechanical damage is caused which ruptures a tank, the fuel will be ejected in a shower of fine droplets which will ignite very readily compared to the vapour over a bucket of the stuff - and metal sliding along the ground in a crash inevitably generates sparks which ignites the droplets of fuel.....
Work was carried out around three decades ago with additives to try and make the fuel safer in aircraft crashes, but they were not very successful.


Thank you for a sensible answer to a genuine question and for not mocking my ignorance.

On reflection I see that with the fuel being carried in the wings and the engines usually being under the wings a ruptured tank will spill its contents onto the very hot engine so that fire is inevitable
 

John Webb

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Thank you for a sensible answer to a genuine question and for not mocking my ignorance......
My pleasure. Having spent most of my working life on fire safety matters any question about fire will always get the attention it deserves; having seen ignorance resulting in people's deaths anything I can do to prevent that happening.......
 

randyrippley

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If kerosene is so less volatile than petroleum how is that nearly every jet aeroplane that crashes catches fire whilst the fuel in racing cars very rarely ignites even in the severest shunt?
when was the last time you saw ANY car ignite after a crash, petrol or diesel?? Burst proof plastic tanks have made a big difference in safety - along with advances in earthing, chassis design, flash prevention
 

CanalWalker

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when was the last time you saw ANY car ignite after a crash, petrol or diesel?? Burst proof plastic tanks have made a big difference in safety - along with advances in earthing, chassis design, flash prevention

It was on a film I was watching on TV last night :)
 

AndrewE

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It was on a film I was watching on TV last night :)
It probably was, films being notoriously (un)realistic! I guess they would turn anything that would be just a bump in real life into a fireball, just for the effect!
 
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