Old buses & accessibility on public services.

[TheGrandWazoo]

Fair enough but the examples quoted are in the minority. Most businesses bought lower capacity vehicles. Also fair to point out that for much of the 1970s and 1980s, the most common decker had 74 seats!

 

[richw]

Come to Cornwall. Many of our buses are like those described in post 1.

 

[MCR247]

Operators like Nottingham and Brighton & Hove took long Scanias with East Lancs bodies to ensure high capacity vehicles.

As the omnidekka is no longer in production (86 seats), in order to carry on having a pretty much Scania only double decker fleet they've gone to standard length (ridiculously small to everyone in Nottingham ) Scania Enviro 400s.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Typical capacity on todays vehicles - H47/28F or even H45/28F, giving at best 75 seats, probably less.

IIRC the non-London Stagecoach E400s have 77 seats.

On double deckers I don't think the low floor makes a great deal of difference. The seats start on a modern decker roughly where they did on the Roe Olympians I used to take to school- just after the front wheel arch or stairs.

There is much more of a difference on single deckers, agreed, but again really only on the single-door ones. Dual door low-floor single deckers aren't really very different from the high-floor ones.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Wilts & Dorset still have a few K reg Leylands running about Poole.

 

[Westnat]

A considerable number of our 'older' passengers consider the distance they have to walk to the first seat to be an issue, judging by the complaints we get. It's also a problem for us as an operator as it impacts on boarding and setting down times as the less mobile passengers take far longer to board/alight when they have to walk further down the bus. Pulling off before they are seated isn't an option, so running times have to be increased, resulting in a less frequent service or an increased vehicle requirement.

 

[MCR247]

Agree with this, but where it does cause problems is for the larger vehicle sizes (ironically)...49 seats has long been a contract standard for single decks, but you just can't get that capacity in similar sized DDA compliant vehicles - they languish around 41/42 seats.
Same thing goes for Olympians - H51/36F gives a huge 87 seats but the only way you get near that these days is by ordering stretched Scania based E400s, or even moving up to E500s!

I don't believe ADL/Scania offer a long wheelbase Scania enviro 400 - unless something has changed over the last 18 months or so?

 

[mbonwick]

Scania E400s are available in 10.9m (H47/29F) or 11.5m (H51/32F) lengths, there may well be more but those are the 2 main ones I'm aware of

 

[MCR247]

When Nottingham City Transport ordered 10.9m Scania E400s in 2013 to displace 11.9m Scania Omnidekkas they said that the Scania E400s didn't come any longer and so they increased frequencies on the routes

 

[Mutant Lemming]

A considerable number of our 'older' passengers consider the distance they have to walk to the first seat to be an issue, judging by the complaints we get. It's also a problem for us as an operator as it impacts on boarding and setting down times as the less mobile passengers take far longer to board/alight when they have to walk further down the bus. Pulling off before they are seated isn't an option, so running times have to be increased, resulting in a less frequent service or an increased vehicle requirement.

Are journey times much improved on what they were 20 or 30 years ago as a result of modern design ?

 

[Mark62]

All the bus services are tendered in The part of Northumberland where I live. The local buses are generally old and totally inaccessible for anyone with either a pram or wheelchair. Coaches with steep entrance steps run and often the buses don't even carry a route number. Some buses leave early and miss out some sections of the route.
I have attempted to discuss this with the county council and ascertain if these tenders specified that buses should have disabled access, but as yet I am unable to get an answer. Publicly funded services in my opinion should have it written into the contract that the buses have to have disabled access.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

as an aside to this thread... in response to the criticism that the seating now starts far back on single deckers a number of designs have come out with seats over the front wheelarches accessed by a very steep step... guess which section of the population these seats are popular with? yes you've guessed it... pensioners who couldn't POSSIBLY manage to get into a step entrance vehicle!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not so popular with wheelchair users though

 

[AnonymousUser1]

as an aside to this thread... in response to the criticism that the seating now starts far back on single deckers a number of designs have come out with seats over the front wheelarches accessed by a very steep step... guess which section of the population these seats are popular with? yes you've guessed it... pensioners who couldn't POSSIBLY manage to get into a step entrance vehicle!

funny how they manage step entrance vehicles when it says Wallace arnold or shearings on the side ...

 

[AM9]

as an aside to this thread... in response to the criticism that the seating now starts far back on single deckers a number of designs have come out with seats over the front wheelarches accessed by a very steep step... guess which section of the population these seats are popular with? yes you've guessed it... pensioners who couldn't POSSIBLY manage to get into a step entrance vehicle!

Pensioners with other levels of fitness are available.

 

[Busaholic]

Pensioners with other levels of fitness are available.

Absolutely, I always like to travel upstairs, even on a Dart.

 

[fowler9]

The old folks mostly seem to cope as do the wheelchair users. It is the parents who can't possibly remove their blessed offspring from a foldable pram for ten minutes that cause the problems on my local route.

 

[ECML180]

In all honesty the problems on my local route are caused by drivers!

The buses are usually middle sized solos with no luggage space. Whenever it gets busy the drivers lean back out of the cab and shout for people to move down the bus, if it doesn't work as a collective instruction non-compliant passengers are singled out and told to move. The big problem with this is that they seem to move people closer to the back first, regardless of whether they have luggage or a pushchair or are clearly infirm and struggling with the step up at the back. I've seen it before with 3 visibly able people sat on flapdowns in the wheelchair space, passengers towards the rear with full suitcases on their laps and a buggy totally blocking the isle. It ended up running very late due to the time taken to offload and re-load the whole bus for one or two people at the back to get off.

 

[ed1971]

I can think of a few problems that may be caused by the DDA regs, but not very many. What are your 'whole host of other problems' ?

We shouldn't forget that a largely unintended benefit of the need for things like lower floors, ramps, wheelchair space etc is that the 'buggy brigade' also now use buses more than they might otherwise.

The main disadvantage of modern low floor buses is the generally inferior ride quality. There are a few models that are an exception, but I would much prefer to travel (for example), on a Dennis Dominator or a Leyland/Volvo Olympian any day than an Enviro 400 or current Volvo double decker.

The ride quality on many new models is no match for the original Routemaster.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is the luggage space getting smaller on all newer buses, no matter what manufacturer? I'm sure the luggage space used to be larger on the older buses

 

[spuddie]

They sure are, I remember the Leyland Nationals having huge luggage pens over the front nearside wheel arch and still having 49 seats on a long version.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is the luggage space getting smaller on all newer buses, no matter what manufacturer? I'm sure the luggage space used to be larger on the older buses

It has very little to do with the low-floor, either. The ALX300 Volvos had a huge luggage space behind the driver, but on more modern E300s it has been replaced with seats.

 

[jon0844]

Would people put luggage at the front of a bus if they had to sit away from it? I remember as a child that buggies used to get folded and put there. Back then buggies were a lot smaller though!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It has very little to do with the low-floor, either. The ALX300 Volvos had a huge luggage space behind the driver, but on more modern E300s it has been replaced with seats.

Not quite. The intrusion of wheel arches into the interior plus wheelchair spaces means fewer seats and the operators may well elect to sacrifice luggage spaces to accommodate more seats.

There have been instances, such as First's Taunton to Minehead service, where they fitted extra luggage racks because of the summer trade to Butlins.

 

[quarella]

In all honesty the problems on my local route are caused by drivers!

The buses are usually middle sized solos with no luggage space. Whenever it gets busy the drivers lean back out of the cab and shout for people to move down the bus, if it doesn't work as a collective instruction non-compliant passengers are singled out and told to move. The big problem with this is that they seem to move people closer to the back first, regardless of whether they have luggage or a pushchair or are clearly infirm and struggling with the step up at the back. I've seen it before with 3 visibly able people sat on flapdowns in the wheelchair space, passengers towards the rear with full suitcases on their laps and a buggy totally blocking the isle. It ended up running very late due to the time taken to offload and re-load the whole bus for one or two people at the back to get off.

I must be missing something here because as far as I can it is the fault of ignorant, selfish passengers.

 

[Antman]

I must be missing something here because as far as I can it is the fault of ignorant, selfish passengers.

In what way are the passengers ignorant or selfish?

 

[quarella]

In what way are the passengers ignorant or selfish?

In the post referred to reference was made to

3 visibly able people sat on flapdowns in the wheelchair space,

If these had identified that it was easier for themselves to forego that seat for someone of greater need, or acted upon the "collective instruction" then individuals would not have needed to be singled out and the bus perhaps a more punctual service could have operated.

 

[ECML180]

If these had identified that it was easier for themselves to forego that seat for someone of greater need, or acted upon the "collective instruction" then individuals would not have needed to be singled out and the bus perhaps a more punctual service could have operated.

Totally incorrect. Initially 2 of them began to stand up as the buggy boarded but the buggy owner instead chose to put the buggy in the isle and sit on a free single seat, which moved no-one. Beleive it or not the passenger was trying to be considerate!

It only became a problem when the bus got busier and the man with the buggy was told to move further back! The driver was reasonably hostile and, as with the passengers with luggage, he complied as the only other real option was to either refuse and hence cause trouble.

As for the infirm couple who boarded in the mean time they were only travelling a few stops so when offered seats politely refused, the bus was moving slowly through traffic at this point so they didn't have too much trouble standing. However at the next stop more people boarded and so the driver told them to move to the seats at the back, leaving them climbing over some luggage stuck in the isle and struggling up the steps. The elderly gentleman ended up standing at the back anyway as he has knee problems and the only available seats were over the wheel arch.

Left to the passengers most of this wouldn't be a problem! The buggy and luggage would have not fitted brilliantly in the wheelchair space but it would have coped and the elderly couple would have (fairly happily) stood at the front. In all honesty the buggy probably should have been let on unless the person with it agreed to fold it but that is a fairly subjective judgement call.