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Old Oak Common Station construction

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BahrainLad

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What does “but will also include the potential for additional services to Wales and the west of England to be added to Old Oak“ mean?

Provision to connect to an HS line to the west, or something more basic?
 
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hwl

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What does “but will also include the potential for additional services to Wales and the west of England to be added to Old Oak“ mean?

Provision to connect to an HS line to the west, or something more basic?
Just the 8 GWML platforms being built, the GW franchise would need to agree to stop the trains though. Crossrail will stop at the GWML platforms.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Do they really think 91,250,000 people will use this station a year putting behind Waterloo? They plan 250,000 people a day which is possible but seems a lot of people for a new station.
I think it's a case of typical politician's weasel wording. They say "pass through", so I'd imagine they are counting all HS2 passengers, as well as all GWR and TfL Rail/Elizabeth Line passengers who pass through (whether stopping or not). Then 91m passengers isn't so unrealistic.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I think it's a case of typical politician's weasel wording. They say "pass through", so I'd imagine they are counting all HS2 passengers, as well as all GWR and TfL Rail/Elizabeth Line passengers who pass through (whether stopping or not). Then 91m passengers isn't so unrealistic.

Thinking about it probably not so unrealistic assuming all GWML services to Paddington and HS2 services stop.
 

pdeaves

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Do they really think 91,250,000 people will use this station a year putting behind Waterloo? They plan 250,000 people a day which is possible but seems a lot of people for a new station.
That's likely to be a planned figure for passenger flow purposes such that the station can cope with an exceptional event. It won't be the expected, day-in-and-day-out usage figure.
 

mallard

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I know - imagine it trying to recoup money through advertising and shops - guess we must just throw subsidy at it every year and not let the station pay its way

I don't think TOCs actually have to pay to put up posters at stations they manage...
 

cle

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Is there anything in there for a bay or two for Chiltern/NNL? And would that be difficult to add later, given doubtful longer than 8 cars?
 

swt_passenger

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It looks like from the plans for the HS2 station include the two northern platforms being built but no tunnel from the East. This assumably is for any future connection with HS1 if it is ever revived
The planned single track HS1 link would have left OOC between the up and down Euston HS2 tunnels, so the link track would logically have connected to the central platforms.
 

pdeaves

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Is there anything in there for a bay or two for Chiltern/NNL? And would that be difficult to add later, given doubtful longer than 8 cars?
There is provision but full design would be part of a separate project. I'm sure I wrote this earlier but the post seems not to have posted (properly).
 

ForTheLoveOf

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The planned single track HS1 link would have left OOC between the up and down Euston HS2 tunnels, so the link track would logically have connected to the central platforms.
Is there passive provision for this to be added at a later stage? That would appear to be the very least that could be done, even if there isn't a viable business case for it today.
 

Dr Hoo

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Shinjuku station in Tokyo was a new idea once (admittedly over 100 years ago) and has grown into probably the World’s busiest station - 51 Platforms, over 200 entrances, many adjacent shopping complexes, hundreds of millions of passengers per year, etc.

Great oaks from little acorns and all that...
 

swt_passenger

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Is there passive provision for this to be added at a later stage? That would appear to be the very least that could be done, even if there isn't a viable business case for it today.
I don’t know, to be honest. We’ve been discussing why there were 6 platforms, and catering for the cancelled link may be the logical reason. I guess as long as there’s a wide enough gap between the up and down Euston tunnels and a blank bit of wall in the box end then that’s passive provision? It might be clearer in the latest drawings if they can be found.
 

mr_jrt

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I've long suspected that the wider layout of the station also means that if more GWML platforms end up being needed the IEP depot footprint will be perfect should a new location for it be found. Chiltern could end up with a good few platforms if the GWML station can effectively expand southward 2 or 4 platforms. Not sure about the track alignment, but if everything stops at OOC it's obviously far less of an issue.
 

takno

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Shinjuku station in Tokyo was a new idea once (admittedly over 100 years ago) and has grown into probably the World’s busiest station - 51 Platforms, over 200 entrances, many adjacent shopping complexes, hundreds of millions of passengers per year, etc.

Great oaks from little acorns and all that...
Shinjuku is right up there with NY Penn station in terms of being bewildering hell-holes. Not sure it's something I'd ever want to emulate.
 

The Planner

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Chiltern could end up with a good few platforms if the GWML station can effectively expand southward 2 or 4 platforms. Not sure about the track alignment, but if everything stops at OOC it's obviously far less of an issue.

Last plans were one platform, no connection to the GWML. Doubt it has changed.
 

mr_jrt

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Last plans were one platform, no connection to the GWML. Doubt it has changed.

I don't mean as part of the initial plan - the IEP depot isn't going anywhere soon! I mean mid to long term. i.e. Chiltern gets a platform or two off to one side initially and if successful, they build up a lot of custom over the years. Say in 10-15 years there's high demand for additional platform capacity and then I would wonder if the IEP depot would be looked at holistically and a new location found for it, enabling new platforms to be built on the southern side. Mains shuffle across to use them, Crossrail shuffles across to use the vacated platforms, and Chiltern are reworked to use the former Crossrail platforms. Chiltern could make very good use of four long platforms with good connectivity for their "mainline" regional services to Birmingham, let alone their suburban services to Oxford and Bicester North.
 

tomuk

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Shinjuku is right up there with NY Penn station in terms of being bewildering hell-holes. Not sure it's something I'd ever want to emulate.

I was amazed to find at NY Penn that one of the staircases to the platform was the original 1910 staircase wrought iron balustrade and all.
 

Bletchleyite

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It seems nuts not to provide Chiltern with a lot of capacity now. Cutting corners on a job like this only means costing a fortune later. That's been regretted in so many places on the network - not least St Pancras.

Two 400m platforms either side of an island with permissive working would probably make sense.
 

The Planner

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You couldn't get the Wycombe single aligned to do that, they would have a bay at the north side of the GWML.
 

Sebastian O

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Not entirely sure why you want to focus on enhancing the Chiltern mainline from Birmingham when that’s exactly what the big HS2 plans are for - and the only reason OOC station is being built for in the first place? Any enhancements towards Birmingham via Chiltern are just duplicating capacity.

Surely it would be better to enhance a potential line towards the SWML if we are going really crayonista..
 

LeeLivery

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Not entirely sure why you want to focus on enhancing the Chiltern mainline from Birmingham when that’s exactly what the big HS2 plans are for - and the only reason OOC station is being built for in the first place? Any enhancements towards Birmingham via Chiltern are just duplicating capacity.

Surely it would be better to enhance a potential line towards the SWML if we are going really crayonista..

It's not really about Birmingham, it's about the stations in between. Chiltern has a lot of potential, but it's suppressed by capacity at Marylebone, short train lengths and endless double track. For example, if you divert a few fast services into Old Oak/Paddington it'll be much easier to have higher frequencies for Wembley Stadium, the Sudbury's and Northolt Park.

As for SWML, do you mean South Wales Main Line or South Western Main Line?
 

si404

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Not entirely sure why you want to focus on enhancing the Chiltern mainline from Birmingham when that’s exactly what the big HS2 plans are for - and the only reason OOC station is being built for in the first place?
Chiltern goes to more places than just Birmingham...
Any enhancements towards Birmingham via Chiltern are just duplicating capacity.
Chiltern goes to more places than just Birmingham... :p

Seriously, OOC platforms are for adding terminating capacity to allow more local/regional service between London and Bucks/Oxon. Diverting a couple of trains an hour to OOC (and adding a couple more from OOC) would allow those paths to be used for the 'Chiltern Metro' enhancements, or more trains via Amersham, or increased service through Wycombe to Aylesbury, Banbury, Oxford, etc, or a mix.
Surely it would be better to enhance a potential line towards the SWML if we are going really crayonista..
Chiltern to OOC is merely build some platforms, and rebuild (in a slightly different place) some tracks closed for HS2 construction. It's cheap as chips (as far as rail schemes can be), and barely registers on the crayonista scale - a long way from "really crayonista".

It is priced at £210-£360m, the majority of which is upgrading the existing line to 80mph double track. £50-£100m for the platforms and track connection near OOC.
 

wildcard

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Not entirely sure why you want to focus on enhancing the Chiltern mainline from Birmingham when that’s exactly what the big HS2 plans are for - and the only reason OOC station is being built for in the first place? Any enhancements towards Birmingham via Chiltern are just duplicating capacity.

Surely it would be better to enhance a potential line towards the SWML if we are going really crayonista..

My understanding is the Chiltern plan for OOC is more a way of relieving expected platform congestion at Marylebone should they wish to increase their frequency on their mainline. Particularly if a London -High Wycombe-Aylesbury-Milton Keynes service ever materialises. OOC could be a victim of its own success , Chiltern commuters might well prefer it to Marylebone if they work in the City or Canary Wharf plus more convenient for the airport if you live in Chiltern's southern catchment area.
 

cle

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I can't see that Chiltern needs more than 2 platforms - surely these would be feeders for Crossrail and HS2 from those towns. Oxford services won't be needed for instance, from OOC - Bicester perhaps might be served via North. I'd suggest two platforms, a double NNL and 2-4tph to High Wycombe, Aylesbury or Banbury, which relieve Marylebone expresses and serve to connect to OOC/Heathrow/HS2/Crossrail - and feed the Crossrail starters further.
 
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