Old SWT routes?

[455refurb]

Hi there,

My first post here so please be kind! I've been a lurker for a while but finally decided to join in, hope to be having some good railway chats

I have a question which someone may be able to answer regarding late 1990's South West Trains routes.

I've always had an interest in the railway, stock, workings etc but as a teenager in the late 90's I knew & noticed much less than I do now.

I used to commute to college from Sutton (Surrey) and there was a South West Trains service that used to pass through there to Guildford, running semi-fast via West Croydon. It then ran fast from Sutton to Epsom & I think it was twice hourly. I assume it originated at Waterloo.

Does anyone know the route this took? I guess it must have originated at Waterloo and crossed from the Waterloo tracks to the Brighton mainline at Clapham Junction (if this is even possible, I assume it is) before branching off at Selhurst. Also, I wonder why it was withdrawn and even why it existed in the first place, as it must have been a long journey and not a "core" SWT route. It'd be great to see a timetable from the era.

Which brings me on to my next question - are there any more routes which SWT used to run but don't any more? On the suburban side, around the same time (late 90's-early 00's) there were two hourly fasts from Epsom to Waterloo calling at Wimbledon & Clapham Junction only. They don't exist any more (more's the pity).

It's interesting as around this time I was commuting to college from Sutton on Connex (good riddance), and Southern's routes & timetable are not all that different now for this franchise as was the case then. However, SWT seem to have made some significant changes in the years that have passed!

Cheers for the input!

 

[skyjuice06]

Hi, this is my 1st post too! I do remember this route, it used to call at West Croydon and then fast to Sutton, then ashtead, leatherhead and guildford.. i remember as my mum used to take this train to work from West Croydon, although i cant remember exactly where it originated from... my guess is Waterloo. Can anyone shed some light on this??

 

[OxtedL]

West Croydon from Waterloo would be an exciting move to achieve. I feel this is unlikely to have happened on a daily basis, but I am an East Croydon kind of guy, so would have no real idea.

My guess is it came from Victoria, or possibly London Bridge, but I wouldn't know for certain and have no evidence to support this. That would, however, make it a South Central franchise service. :?

Southern still run services to/from Guildford in the peaks (one each for Victoria and London Bridge at the last check), so this would add up. Hope this is some help.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure the SWT service only ran to/from the old bay platform 2 at West Croydon, the one filled in a year or two back.

I can't remember when it last ran, but the Sept 2004 London Connections map doesn't show it.

 

[OxtedL]

I have just checked, and Southern still run two AM peak services into Guildford - one from Sutton, and one from Victoria via West Croydon (by the looks of it calling everywhere)

 

[skyjuice06]

I'm sure the SWT service only ran to/from the old bay platform 2 at West Croydon, the one filled in a year or two back.

I can't remember when it last ran, but the Sept 2004 London Connections map doesn't show it.

I dont recall seeing any SWTs ever being at the bay platform...
That platform was for the Wimbledon-West Croydon service which was closed in 1997, and I think it was completely obsolete after that.

 

[swt_passenger]

Found a reference to the closure:

Timetable Changes to Boost Reliability on South West Trains Services [from September 2003]

Over the past few years, the rail network has seen 20% more trains services
and 30% more passenger kilometres travelled. The result is a busier, more
congested network that doesn't always perform as it should for its
customers. In order to secure improvements in reliability and performance,
the SRA today announces the following changes:
Faster off-peak services on London to Portsmouth via Fareham route provided,
by diverting one of four current London to Southampton trains.
West Croydon to Guildford off-peak service replaced in part by an extended
Waterloo to Epsom service running on to Guildford, giving Bookham an all-day
through service to London as a result.
Woking junction congestion eased by removal of two off-peak London to
Guildford via Woking stopping services per hour. Guildford keeps four
London fast trains an hour and Woking twelve fast trains per hour; most
local stations will have at least two services per hour.
Current congestion at Staines to be eased and new off-peak London through
services for Chertsey and Addlestone provided, resulting from plan to divert
two off-peak Reading to Waterloo services to run from Weybridge instead.

Maybe it reversed in a through platform - I can't remember exactly how it all worked though...

I've added the rest of the changes announced at the same time, which may interest 455refurb.

 

[tbtc]

I thought it terminated at West Croydon, but never used it so can't say with any conviction.

Other routes? Reading - Basingstoke - Brighton? The Reading - Waterloo service used to be four/ hour. The Waterloo - Exeter service used to run into Cornwall (until fairly recently). Shame most TOCs are retreating more and more into their "core" (thus losing links across boundaries)

 

[NSE]

I do believe that the service was between West Croydon and Guildford, and not from London. Surprisingly, No connection can be made at Clapham Junction between the two franchises track-wise, for all the trackwork and junctions there the approaches stay segregated to both termini.

 

[skyjuice06]

Found a reference to the closure:



Maybe it reversed in a through platform - I can't remember exactly how it all worked though...

I've added the rest of the changes announced at the same time, which may interest 455refurb.

That's awesome thanks a lot!!!

 

[OxtedL]

No connection can be made at Clapham Junction between the two franchises track-wise, for all the trackwork and junctions there the approaches stay segregated to both termini.

I always find this slightly surprising.

Does anyone know how the 4VEP thingy got from Eastleigh to East Grinstead via Clapham?

 

[thefab444]

The WCY - GLD service reversed in platform 3 at West Croydon I believe, and ran half hourly. Trains called at Sutton and Epsom, then all stations to Guildford. It was originally a Thameslink service, but this was diverted to Sutton in around 1996. It was cut in 2003 as mentioned, when the WAT - EPS stopping services were extended through to Guildford, not a major loss in my opinion.

Some of the 2003 service "cuts" were actually good, especially the faster service to Fareham, but the withdrawal of the Waterloo - Guildford off-peak semi fast service has caused a real problem, as it has resulted in much slower journey times to places like Farnborough and Fleet (and also the Alton line), which have had to be compensated with more longer distance trains calling.

 

[NSE]

I don't know the names of the junctions, but it could well have come up Eastleigh-Weybridge-Virginia Water then into Clapham on the Windsor line, if it then came through platform 3, I believe it could go up to roughly the area where the SWT carriage washer lies, and go on to the West London line. There it can reverse, and travel back to the Southern platforms (16/17) and hence onwards to East Grinstead. It can switch from the slow lines to the fast just south of Wandsworth Common.

 

[stut]

Was there at any point a Guildford-Haslemere all-stations shuttle service (connecting with the fast train at Guildford)? Or is my memory failing me?

(The latter is entirely possible, and quite likely...)

 

[thefab444]

Was there at any point a Guildford-Haslemere all-stations shuttle service (connecting with the fast train at Guildford)? Or is my memory failing me?

That's correct, I think that was removed in around 1999-ish. Based on the 1997 timetable, the WAT - PMS fast services called only at Guildford, Havant and Fratton, with a connection at Guildford for all stations to Haslemere. Journey time to PMS was 1 hour and 21 minutes, compared to 1 hour 32 minutes now, albeit with extra calls at Woking, Haslemere and Petersfield.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't know the names of the junctions, but it could well have come up Eastleigh-Weybridge-Virginia Water then into Clapham on the Windsor line, if it then came through platform 3, I believe it could go up to roughly the area where the SWT carriage washer lies, and go on to the West London line. There it can reverse, and travel back to the Southern platforms (16/17) and hence onwards to East Grinstead. It can switch from the slow lines to the fast just south of Wandsworth Common.

This was the original route taken in Jan 2009, from Wimbledon Park via Woking, West Byfleet, Virginia Water; and then:

Clapham Junction Plat 3
Longhedge Jn
Factory Jct
Voltaire Road Jn
Brixton
Herne Hill
Tulse Hill
Streatham
Streatham Common
Selhurst
Windmill Bridge Jn
East Croydon

Then as you'd expect. I think this has been the normal route used as there's no need for any reversals near Clapham Jn.

 

[robertbishop]

I always find this slightly surprising.

Does anyone know how the 4VEP thingy got from Eastleigh to East Grinstead via Clapham?

The two lines aren't completely segregated. I assume the VEP went via Basingstoke, Staines, then through Clapham P2/3, then under the SWML and BML, coming out at Wandworth Road. Then down through Brixton, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Crystal Palace, Norwood then onto the main line through Croydon.

 

[swt_passenger]

The two lines aren't completely segregated.

In the context of the earlier question they are effectively segregated, ie could the SWT service have run from Guildford, Sutton, through West Croydon and then into Waterloo...

 

[NSE]

This was the original route taken in Jan 2009, from Wimbledon Park via Woking, West Byfleet, Virginia Water; and then:

Clapham Junction Plat 3
Longhedge Jn
Factory Jct
Voltaire Road Jn
Brixton
Herne Hill
Tulse Hill
Streatham
Streatham Common
Selhurst
Windmill Bridge Jn
East Croydon

Then as you'd expect. I think this has been the normal route used as there's no need for any reversals near Clapham Jn.

Ahhh yup gotcha, I've often seen trains waiting down as I ascend up the bridge and over the SWML in to Victoria.

 

[Oracle]

I don't think that it has been mentioned but the Brighton-Paignton via Salisbury service has gone as of 8/12/07.

Is there still a service from Waterloo to Guildford via Ascot and Aldershot?

 

[455refurb]

Fantastic stuff, cheers for all the info!

Sorry for the late reply btw, didn't realise I'd been activated!

Interesting that it originated at West Croydon and not London, but I guess it makes sense if Clapham Junction is totally segregated between the two franchises (which is surprising when you consider it). I wonder why it was ever a SWT route? Would that have been because more of the stations covered were SWT stations?

I do remember one trip on this service on an occasion in the late 90's when due to severe disruption, it made additional stops at Cheam & Ewell East, other than that I never used it, just saw it pass through on a daily basis.

Thanks swt_passenger for including the other changes in that 2003 press release also. Interesting stuff!

 

[thefab444]

Is there still a service from Waterloo to Guildford via Ascot and Aldershot?

No, but there are still a few Waterloo - Aldershot via Ascot services (and vice versa) in the peak periods.