On board ticket sales and operating speed

[asb]

One thing that may discourage people from using TOTO as opposed to just buying the ticket from the driver is related to the phenomenon of people not having their means of payment ready when they board - they don't want their bank card in their hand as they get off because they then need to put it away again outside the bus. There is also some stress in remembering to tap out (until it becomes automatic, granted) which is avoided by concluding the transaction on boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that may discourage people from using TOTO as opposed to just buying the ticket from the driver is related to the phenomenon of people not having their means of payment ready when they board - they don't want their bank card in their hand as they get off because they then need to put it away again outside the bus. There is also some stress in remembering to tap out (until it becomes automatic, granted) which is avoided by concluding the transaction on boarding.

This is why it needs to be mandatory for a single passenger paying by card. The needs of the many, as Spock said...

 

[joieman]

One thing that may discourage people from using TOTO as opposed to just buying the ticket from the driver is related to the phenomenon of people not having their means of payment ready when they board - they don't want their bank card in their hand as they get off because they then need to put it away again outside the bus. There is also some stress in remembering to tap out (until it becomes automatic, granted) which is avoided by concluding the transaction on boarding.

That's precisely how I feel. I don't like having to remember to tap off going on in the back of my mind for well over an hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's precisely how I feel. I don't like having to remember to tap off going on in the back of my mind for well over an hour.

You presumably don't forget to pay when you board so it would rapidly become muscle memory particularly as you pass a reader on exit (in the well designed schemes) to remind you. Plus the worst that happens if you don't tap off is that you're charged to the end of the route - there's no need for penalties in a bus context as you can't have travelled further than that.

 

[Ghostbus]

These parochial yet mandatory systems don't feel very futuristic to me. It's just a digital version of all prior pre-payment systems, with their tokens and cards. This isn't how you use widely available commonly understood technology to make things better.

Even the banks seem to know that - I can now get cash out of an ATM using only my smartphone and my banking app. They identified a problem, namely contactless payment is neither universal nor robust, and found a way to make things better by combining legacy systems with new technology to find a solution. In a hassle free way. No set-up required at all, and as quick and easy to use as anything else that involves the confluence of payment authority and a smartphone these days.

A nice little stop gap, until someone figures out how to do away with cash completely, which could be anywhere from 5 to 50 years away. If only buses were as nice to their customers as banks! Lol. (the point holds even if as I fear, the banks are only being this nice because central government told them to be nice)

 

[PeterC]

That's precisely how I feel. I don't like having to remember to tap off going on in the back of my mind for well over an hour.

Nobody has ever suggested that the DLR was too stressful as it largely uses free standing readers.

Plenty of complaints about them being hidden but not about the underlying TOTO concept.

The one issue would be with a mix of flat fare local buses using tap-on and inter-urban or rural routes with graduated fared using TOTO.

 

[185]

I'm overseas with the local bus operator since the 1970s always having prepayment cards and now TOTO that was excellent, until they started giving their own locals free travel, whilst non-residents get nothing.

This led to non-residents having absolutely no discount on the fares leading tourists & visitors who fund the service thinking 'why bother?' reverting to cash which has had the opposite effect - buses losing 3-4 minutes at many stops, drivers at their wits end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one issue would be with a mix of flat fare local buses using tap-on and inter-urban or rural routes with graduated fared using TOTO.

I think GM might fall into this - while the plan is a flat fare within the city, they will also operate a fair way out of their area, including if I recall stuff like route 385 Wigan-Southport despite only a tiny amount of that route being within GM (most of it is in Lancashire and a similarly small bit at the end Liverpool City Region). I would be astonished if they offered the intra-GM flat fare for journeys that go outside GM on routes like this.

Best you can do for that is put a sign under the tap-off reader explaining, finishing with "if in doubt, tap off" - to do so cannot be to your disadvantage.

 

[LowLevel]

Where I grew up in the West Midlands the West Midlands Travel/TWM/National Express, whatever you wish to call them drivers and most passengers had it down to a fine art. Cash in vault, destination stated, ticket from machine external to the cab in seconds. The driver didn't touch the cash or the ticket which was cut by the machine and pulled out easily. The daysaver or group tickets were sensibly priced to avoid faffing with small change. If you had a note or a £2 coin and needed change the accepted custom was the driver would always give you a couple of stops to go and ask other passengers for help and if you could help you would as the boot might be on the other foot soon. To be fair it worked well.

The change giving operators were always noticeably slower in my experience unless you had the right fare anyway.

 

[johncrossley]

That's precisely how I feel. I don't like having to remember to tap off going on in the back of my mind for well over an hour.

The Dutch have been using tap in tap out on buses since about 2007. This was with smartcards, but since last year also with contactless bank cards.

I think GM might fall into this - while the plan is a flat fare within the city, they will also operate a fair way out of their area, including if I recall stuff like route 385 Wigan-Southport despite only a tiny amount of that route being within GM (most of it is in Lancashire and a similarly small bit at the end Liverpool City Region). I would be astonished if they offered the intra-GM flat fare for journeys that go outside GM on routes like this.

The Bee Network already has long routes outside the region, such as the 184 Oldham to Huddersfield and the 100 Manchester to Warrington. These are both covered by the £2 flat fare, not the temporary national fare cap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Bee Network already has long routes outside the region, such as the 184 Oldham to Huddersfield and the 100 Manchester to Warrington. These are both covered by the £2 flat fare, not the temporary national fare cap.

If the Bee Network are going to spend a fortune subsidising Lancashire passengers down to a £2 fare I'm sure they'll be most happy!

To be fair I was surprised to hear this would be a Bee route, I'd expected it to stay commercial on a service permit of some kind as this sort of route often does in London.

 

[joieman]

Where I grew up in the West Midlands the West Midlands Travel/TWM/National Express, whatever you wish to call them drivers and most passengers had it down to a fine art. Cash in vault, destination stated, ticket from machine external to the cab in seconds. The driver didn't touch the cash or the ticket which was cut by the machine and pulled out easily. The daysaver or group tickets were sensibly priced to avoid faffing with small change. If you had a note or a £2 coin and needed change the accepted custom was the driver would always give you a couple of stops to go and ask other passengers for help and if you could help you would as the boot might be on the other foot soon. To be fair it worked well.

The change giving operators were always noticeably slower in my experience unless you had the right fare anyway.

I was rather critical of exact-fare machines in the past (my mum having lost a quid on a Nottingham City Transport Network Grouprider after forgetting that the South Notts 1 service had lately been converted to exact-fare operations).

In practice, though, with the £2 fare cap which has effectively created a flat fare, more often than not, I pay an exact fare in practice (for singles), and on one occasion when I bought a group ticket, I actually forgot to take the change, and my mum (who was paying for her own fare separately) had to pick up the change for me!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was rather critical of exact-fare machines in the past (my mum having lost a quid on a Nottingham City Transport Network Grouprider after forgetting that the South Notts 1 service had lately been converted to exact-fare operations).

In practice, though, with the £2 fare cap which has effectively created a flat fare, more often than not, I pay an exact fare in practice (for singles), and on one occasion when I bought a group ticket, I actually forgot to take the change, and my mum (who was paying for her own fare separately) had to pick up the change for me!

It works when it's £2, but it can't stay £2 forever, and going up by the sort of jumps needed to keep it to two coins means some hefty increases when the time for an increase comes.

Certainly exact-change-only cash in a farebox is the most efficient (and safe for drivers) way of doing cash payment, but just getting rid of it is easier these days as you don't need to cash up then.

 

[johncrossley]

If the Bee Network are going to spend a fortune subsidising Lancashire passengers down to a £2 fare I'm sure they'll be most happy!

To be fair I was surprised to hear this would be a Bee route, I'd expected it to stay commercial on a service permit of some kind as this sort of route often does in London.

There is precedent for this with TfL, who operate several routes well into surrounding areas with normal TfL fares. It would be too much trouble to have separate fares for the few routes outside the normal TfL area.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Nobody has ever suggested that the DLR was too stressful as it largely uses free standing readers.

Plenty of complaints about them being hidden but not about the underlying TOTO concept.

The one issue would be with a mix of flat fare local buses using tap-on and inter-urban or rural routes with graduated fared using TOTO.

Indeed and the difference with the DLR is that the readers are on the platform I believe. The issue with bus TOTO is that you are forced to do acrobatics on a moving bus to reach the reader before you get off, and this can be time-consuming if you decide to do it when the bus is stationary instead.

 

[higthomas]

I can't believe anyone here thinks time taken for people to board an alight isn't a problem.

I recently took a journey in Cambridge from Addenbrookes-Station-City Centre-A bit beyond.
Over half of my journey was spent sitting on a stationary bus whilst the driver sold tickets.
It was about 5 minutes selling tickets at each of the hospital, city centre and station.

That is such a massive waste of passengers time, and the bus companies money. It really puts me off taking the bus.
Compared to where I used to live in North London, where I frequently saw a double decker go from empty to full and standing in about 2 minutes.

 

[johncrossley]

Indeed and the difference with the DLR is that the readers are on the platform I believe. The issue with bus TOTO is that you are forced to do acrobatics on a moving bus to reach the reader before you get off, and this can be time-consuming if you decide to do it when the bus is stationary instead.

They need to allow you to touch out once you have passed the previous stop. This is how it works in the Netherlands. You can see the name of the next stop on the reader so you can be sure that it is the right stop. The Ticketer machines I have come across only let you touch out once you are approaching the stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed and the difference with the DLR is that the readers are on the platform I believe. The issue with bus TOTO is that you are forced to do acrobatics on a moving bus to reach the reader before you get off, and this can be time-consuming if you decide to do it when the bus is stationary instead.

It's not time consuming. Like touching in, you do it as you walk past to alight without any need to break step.

 

[johncrossley]

The Ticketer tap off machines are suboptimal compared to the TfL readers. For some reason you have to hold the card on the reader until all the LEDs light up. That isn't necessary with the TfL readers, which are (presumably) older technology.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Ticketer tap off machines are suboptimal compared to the TfL readers. For some reason you have to hold the card on the reader until all the LEDs light up. That isn't necessary with the TfL readers, which are (presumably) older technology.

To be honest I find most things Ticketer do to be sub-optimal in some way, though they have brought the benefit of widespread card payment. I guess the issue is that to get in on an industry that's quite hot on cost control you needed to be cheap, so the components of it are accordingly cheap.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's not time consuming. Like touching in, you do it as you walk past to alight without any need to break step.

It is time consuming with the Ticketer one, you have to tap as you come past and hold it for a second or two as johncrossley mentioned. And that's what a lot of bus companies use. It's very difficult when you're coming down from the upper deck or the bus is braking to a stop without sliding off down the aisle.

I agree that this would have to be the solution on less frequent routes, but anything with a frequency above 30 mins should have off-bus readers installed. It shouldn't be that hard to install a reader with a solar panel supply, with a program of gradual rollout.

 

[johncrossley]

It is time consuming with the Ticketer one, you have to tap as you come past and hold it for a second or two as johncrossley mentioned. And that's what a lot of bus companies use. It's very difficult when you're coming down from the upper deck or the bus is braking to a stop without sliding off down the aisle.

This is not a problem with the concept, though, but with the implementation. The answer is to buy better equipment, like what they use in London or in other countries. The British obsession with one door buses doesn't help either. In the Netherlands, people are tapping out at the same time that people are tapping in.

I agree that this would have to be the solution on less frequent routes, but anything with a frequency above 30 mins should have off-bus readers installed. It shouldn't be that hard to install a reader with a solar panel supply, with a program of gradual rollout.

No way is this going to happen. They don't have this on Dutch buses despite tap out being used for over 15 years. They even have readers inside tram vehicles.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This is not a problem with the concept, though, but with the implementation. The answer is to buy better equipment, like what they use in London or in other countries. The British obsession with one door buses doesn't help either. In the Netherlands, people are tapping out at the same time that people are tapping in.

Both types could be trialled,
the tap in readers at stops work well with the Glider in Belfast - there are many routes of a similar frequency in the UK.

No way is this going to happen. They don't have this on Dutch buses despite tap out being used for over 15 years. They even have readers inside tram vehicles.

Most people tend to use the OV-Chipkaart in the Netherlands, no? So it's surely less of an issue because the operation has been refined.

 

[johncrossley]

Most people tend to use the OV-Chipkaart in the Netherlands, no? So it's surely less of an issue because the operation has been refined.

Why does it matter whether they are using a smartcard or contactless card? Contactless has only been in operation for about a year but the principle is identical.

There have been no obvious refinements as far as I can tell. It worked fine right at the beginning. If it wasn't working well, it wouldn't have been extended to contactless bank cards.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why does it matter whether they are using a smartcard or contactless card? Contactless has only been in operation for about a year but the principle is identical.

There have been no obvious refinements as far as I can tell. It worked fine right at the beginning. If it wasn't working well, it wouldn't have been extended to contactless bank cards.

A smartcard is a more established technology. Contactless has a lot more documented issues in other sectors, so it's logical you'd see issues here.

 

[The exile]

Indeed and the difference with the DLR is that the readers are on the platform I believe. The issue with bus TOTO is that you are forced to do acrobatics on a moving bus to reach the reader before you get off, and this can be time-consuming if you decide to do it when the bus is stationary instead.

And that everyone else is stuck behind the person fumbling to tap off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that everyone else is stuck behind the person fumbling to tap off.

As this system is in place on buses the world over and works just fine, I think this just needs fixing with better hardware if the Ticketer implementation is really that bad. Singapore has had TOTO (smartcard) for 20+ years for instance.

 

[The exile]

As this system is in place on buses the world over and works just fine, I think this just needs fixing with better hardware if the Ticketer implementation is really that bad. Singapore has had TOTO (smartcard) for 20+ years for instance.

In conjunction with single door buses?

 

[johncrossley]

In conjunction with single door buses?

Obviously hardly any developed countries uses single door buses!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In conjunction with single door buses?

Obviously dual door speeds things up further (though is probably one for another thread) regardless of whether you do TOTO or not, though it usually only gains you 5-10 seconds rather than potentially minutes at each stop, and it depends on whether there are stops when you have lots of both boarding and alighting, which UK urban bus routes mostly don't - you mostly have boarding towards the bus station and alighting away from it. The point is that TOTO is just done without breaking stride in most other countries (and the "tap on" bit is done like that in London), therefore with the right equipment it can be done here.