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On "Dry" trains....

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GrimShady

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Its a common tactic on other forms of transport to increase sales of their own alcoholic drinks.
 
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Alanko

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In my experience drunk people cause the problems, not drinking people. Rather than stopping normal people enjoying a beer they should perhaps concentrate on stopping obviously hammered and coked up idiots from entering the railway, whether they are carrying alcohol or not.

Until you can take the latter out of the equation somehow then it makes sense to treat all drinkers as equal. Even if you are having a 'couple of tinnies' then you can still be a nuisance to other passengers. I'm shelling out £25 for Glasgow - Edinburgh returns; the last thing I want is somebody's beery breath, rattling empties and boring anecdotes because, two cans in, they become everybody's friend.

I've known a few people who have taken trains down from Aberdeen. A few oil workers, freshly back on shore, break out the vodka bottles and quickly become unruly. They board the train sober however. Everybody suffers in this scenario.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've heard that many drinking establishments in the US ID everyone who looks under 50, though. It has even been been known for people in their 60s, 70s or even older to get IDd!

I think that's state law in some states - most things relating to alcohol aren't a federal matter.
 

GrimShady

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Until you can take the latter out of the equation somehow then it makes sense to treat all drinkers as equal. Even if you are having a 'couple of tinnies' then you can still be a nuisance to other passengers. I'm shelling out £25 for Glasgow - Edinburgh returns; the last thing I want is somebody's beery breath, rattling empties and boring anecdotes because, two cans in, they become everybody's friend.

I've known a few people who have taken trains down from Aberdeen. A few oil workers, freshly back on shore, break out the vodka bottles and quickly become unruly. They board the train sober however. Everybody suffers in this scenario.

Hence why First Class is always worth it and never particularly over subscribed on the E&G.

The Ex Aberdeen trains can get bad I agree.
 

fowler9

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Good evening sir, I cant help noticing you have a couple of cans about your person. You aren't going to drink them on the train are you?

Me? NOoooooooooooooooooooooo. not at all. nope.

Great on you go then! Have a nice evening.

how is that going to work? Dry train as long as you don't look like a wrong un?
But here's the thing mate, there were letting people on who were absolutely steaming drunk and already being a nuisance and I got turned away from my ten minute journey to South Parkway because I had cans in my bag. Rules are rules and I left without arguing. Seems daft though.
 

Spurs

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Some trains out of the main cities at 2330 on a Saturday night are literally full of drunks. Like full of, some requiring to be physically loaded on trains by friends. I should imagine some of the theory of dry trains is to try and reduce this sort of thing somewhat, without having police numbers to literally turn these people away on suspicion of being very drunk and removed, it's easier to advertise confiscating alcohol so the message might get over that the operator would rather customers travel in a fit condition.
Well where do we want these people? Behind the wheel, or on a train? It's public transport. You have to put up with the public, including those members of it you don't like. As long as they're not assaulting people or whatever, let them be. Maybe have a quiet carriage or two.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well where do we want these people? Behind the wheel, or on a train? It's public transport. You have to put up with the public, including those members of it you don't like. As long as they're not assaulting people or whatever, let them be. Maybe have a quiet carriage or two.

I'm getting bored of telling people off for making a racket (e.g. playing music out loud) in quiet coaches. So I'm not sure that would make any difference, particularly as staff seem unwilling to enforce quiet coaches without a complaint, the making of which can be quite awkward.
 

Spurs

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I'm shelling out £25 for Glasgow - Edinburgh returns; the last thing I want is somebody's beery breath, rattling empties and boring

So what? If I've shelled out £100 for a London - Manchester return, the last thing I may want is a young family meaning I have to watch my language, commuters taking up loads of space with spread-out newspapers, or babies screaming and crying. That doesn't mean I can expect them all to be banned from trains!
 

Spurs

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I'm getting bored of telling people off for making a racket (e.g. playing music out loud) in quiet coaches. So I'm not sure that would make any difference, particularly as staff seem unwilling to enforce quiet coaches without a complaint, the making of which can be quite awkward.
Maybe that's a solution then, encourage staff to do so more regularly, especially if they're passing through anyway to check tickets etc. But failing that, having drunk people on public transport is infinitely safer than the alternative of having drunk people using other methods of transport.
 
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Eurostar policy is one way of stopping booze cruises (train services).
I wonder how long that lasts if Brexit happens and Duty free comes back
 

johnnychips

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Oh dear. So I can drink all afternoon in the Celtica bar in Brussels for €2 a pint before getting the train if I want, but can’t bring more than four Belgian beers or any pear schnapps at all from the distillery at Thuin. And they don’t even do Leffe in the Eurostar buffet any more!
 

mmh

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Hence why First Class is always worth it and never particularly over subscribed on the E&G.

Not always. My experience of Sunday afternoon Manchester to London trains is standard class is more pleasant than first. First gets rammed full of loud, opinionated, entitled types pretending they're posh.

Between Christmas and New Year I was on one, sat in the sole pair of single seats you get on 390s, next to the train manager office with a view of a screen flipping between CCTV cameras. Standard was perhaps 60% full, First was packed.
 

infobleep

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As I said, it isn't like airline checked luggage - you have to drop off well in advance and collect well after arrival. So it's useless, basically.
Why so far in advance. Surely they must be able to make it closer to one departure and arrival.

I mean the Victorians ma aged to do it on the railways with luggage and they didn't have 21st century technology to help them!
 

Bletchleyite

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Why so far in advance. Surely they must be able to make it closer to one departure and arrival.

I mean the Victorians ma aged to do it on the railways with luggage and they didn't have 21st century technology to help them!

I really don't understand why they can't offer checked luggage in an airline type manner, i.e. drop off up to about 40 minutes before departure, and pick up about 20 minutes after arrival. It's not exactly difficult. It's an issue for those with bicycles, too.

I can only conclude it's because they are a poorly-run, arrogant organisation with a very pronounced Gallic shrug. Very much like the equally nasty Thalys.

Sleasyjet for me.
 

infobleep

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I really don't understand why they can't offer checked luggage in an airline type manner, i.e. drop off up to about 40 minutes before departure, and pick up about 20 minutes after arrival. It's not exactly difficult. It's an issue for those with bicycles, too.

I can only conclude it's because they are a poorly-run, arrogant organisation with a very pronounced Gallic shrug. Very much like the equally nasty Thalys.

Sleasyjet for me.
I can't disagree with your first point. I don't know enough as to whether to agree with your second point.
 

bionic

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Every TOC in the country has its "vomit comets". The idea of taking booze off sensible, sober individuals is laughable when you have certain trains that you can set your watch by being a dangerous, drunken, zombie apocalypse every single weekend.

Either enforce the bylaws properly and stop people who are hammered from travelling, or just turn a blind eye to everything. I'd rather share a carriage with people having a few cans than a train full of coked up, blind drunk morons who aren't carrying any containers of drink.
 

Howardh

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Why are people so compelled to drink on trains that it warrants splitting it down to this level of detail?
Something wrong with wanting a nice refreshing ice cold Shandy and asking if it's OK?
 

Bletchleyite

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Something wrong with wanting a nice refreshing ice cold Shandy and asking if it's OK?

The issue with this debate is that it will probably go on forever.

Non-drinkers (and @Alanko sounds like one) will never understand the pleasure of a drink.
Drinkers will never understand how intimidating a drunk person can be even if they have no bad intentions.

:)
 

sheff1

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Well where do we want these people? Behind the wheel, or on a train?
Maybe that's a solution then, encourage staff to do so more regularly, especially if they're passing through anyway to check tickets etc. But failing that, having drunk people on public transport is infinitely safer than the alternative of having drunk people using other methods of transport.

Every Saturday hoards of people travel from Doncaster to York on the train with, seemingly, the sole intention of drinking all day. If the ones who are unable to take their drink were refused return travel (perfectly possible under the Byelaws) they would have two options - stay in York until they had sobered up, take a taxi (assuming they could find one which would carry them).

Quickly realising that a train trip to York to get plastered was no longer such a 'good' day out these people would not decide to drive to York instead, they would find another way to spend Saturday evenings - much the same as they used to before the trip to York became 'a thing'.
 

pt_mad

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Well where do we want these people? Behind the wheel, or on a train? It's public transport. You have to put up with the public, including those members of it you don't like. As long as they're not assaulting people or whatever, let them be. Maybe have a quiet carriage or two.

Every TOC in the country has its "vomit comets". The idea of taking booze off sensible, sober individuals is laughable when you have certain trains that you can set your watch by being a dangerous, drunken, zombie apocalypse every single weekend.

Either enforce the bylaws properly and stop people who are hammered from travelling, or just turn a blind eye to everything. I'd rather share a carriage with people having a few cans than a train full of coked up, blind drunk morons who aren't carrying any containers of drink.
The bottom quote seems to answer the top quote. Bylaws.

The thing is, if someone is stood on the street, and a drunk or a group of drunks started giving them grief or making fun of them, or saying things they probably wouldn't if they hadn't lost their sense of restraint, most of us would walk away quickly. Rail staff can't do that if their duties place them in that exact place at that exact time for the safety of the operation. And the police aren't going to go out to an unpoliced station because someone is saying a member of staff ate all the pies to their mates, but it can obviously hurt. Nor are they likely to attend because people are leaving beer spillages and glass bottles in public areas,
which takes staff away from assisting other passengers. Or swearing when there might be children traveling with parents.
The railway has obviously had to respond to areas which have had significant bother, and so the few can spoil it for the many. But such is life and it's not confined to the railway.
 
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Clansman

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Dry trains are all good and well for everybody when those trying to enforce it are too naiive to bat an eyelid to a wad of people suddenly drinking out of takeaway cups ;)
 

GrimShady

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I'm getting bored of telling people off for making a racket (e.g. playing music out loud) in quiet coaches. So I'm not sure that would make any difference, particularly as staff seem unwilling to enforce quiet coaches without a complaint, the making of which can be quite awkward.

The staff are the worst sometimes. LNER coach L is probably the worst coach on the train for noise.
 

RLBH

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Anywhere where I have seen trains advertised as "dry", it has always been worded as "consumption of alcohol is not allowed" rather than just having unopened bottles / cans. The idea of banning unopened stuff is just nuts. What if someone had say just done their weekly shop for crying out loud?
When Scotrail runs dry trains for sporting events - and I believe certain trains from Aberdeen which are well used by offshore workers coming off of a shift on a rig - they do indeed mean no alcohol whatsoever anywhere on the train. There have been cases of unsuspecting people having fairly expensive bottles of whisky, either received or intended to be given as gifts, confiscated.
Dry trains are all good and well for everybody when those trying to enforce it are too naiive to bat an eyelid to a wad of people suddenly drinking out of takeaway cups ;)
I doubt if this is naivete at work - in most cases, the staff will be fully aware of what's going on, and choosing not to make an issue of it.

We all know that the problem isn't alcohol per se, but drunk people. Unfortunately, once they're on the train and causing problems, getting them off will require BTP and a delay to the service. Stopping them getting on is even harder, and stopping them getting drunk once they're aboard virtually impossible.The worst of it, in my experience (although I've never had the dubious pleasure of a match day train) is hen parties on long distance services. They start drunk, get drunker, and have far less self restraint than their male equivalents.

If you take away their booze there's a good chance they'll sober up and calm down, or else fall asleep; if they were sober-ish when they boarded, then you've prevented a future problem. Even on short runs, the deterrent effect will keep the more committed drunks away, though if you're having 'dry' trains on short suburban runs, it's probably because the Spice Girls are playing Arsenal or something. You'll have to hose the train down afterwards anyway, and it'll be standing room only. Cattle wagons might be most suitable for this kind of work.
 

lord rathmore

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Afaik they have a different system at Edinburgh Waverley where unopened conceiled alcohol is permitted afaik, with opened alcohol carried loosely banned after 9pm if anyone can clarify? Something like that anyway.
Couple of years ago I joined a train at Dunbar. 4 guys going to the rugby drank at least 30 cans of Tennants between there and Peterbrough. They were very rowdy, playing loud music, shouting and pissing off everyone else in the carriage. The staff came and took away the empties every hour or so. Boy was I glad to get off at Peterborough! Drunks on trains are a right royal pain in the rear.
 

AY1975

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Only some states ID everyone for alcohol (other than the minimum 21 thing which sort-of isn't[1], most alcohol related stuff in the US is a state matter).

[1] Actually, it is, but they forced it through by removing certain sources of national funding from states if they didn't implement it.

Yes, that's right, technically the drinking age is a state matter, but I believe that since about the mid-1980s there has been a federal law that says any state that doesn't have a minimum drinking age of 21 has to take a cut in highway funds. By about the late '80s or early '90s just about every state had complied and implemented the 21 minimum age (except that I think Louisiana kept it at 18 until about 1995ish, and even now I believe it is pretty lax at enforcing the 21 age barrier unlike many other states).

Despite that, the age of legal majority is still 18 in most states AFAIK, so at 18 you can vote, get married, buy a house, join the Army, etc, but you can't drink for another three years except in your own home (or other people's homes). It beggars belief that at 18 you're deemed mature enough to do just about everything that an adult can do, except drinking - a legacy of the Prohibition era and the anti-alcohol attitudes that have prevailed ever since, I suppose. I know this is getting off topic really, though.
 

robbeech

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The idea of dry trains is to alleviate the likelihood of alcohol related disorder. Somebody who has unopened alcohol in a backpack and is by themselves, is not the type of person dry trains are aimed at. Where do you draw the line? Somebody nips in to M&S on the concourse and buys one of their posh meal deals to treat their other half, and with said meal deal comes a bottle of wine....are they given the benefit of the doubt?

Not with EMT, or rather for clarity, not with SOME EMT guards. A chap i know in his early 70s bought exactly this sort of thing after a day in Nottingham to take home with him. A meal and a bottle of wine to drink (or part drink) with it. In an M&S carrier bag. He boarded the train at Nottingham, and on inspection was asked to hand over the (still sealed) bottle to the guard. He was driving when he got to the station so hadn't had a drink anywhere and was simply taking it home. This to me seems absolutely nothing more than a power trip sadly.
 

apk55

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Is this policy going to rule out using the train for shopping trips thereby forcing people to use their car if they want to purchase any alcohol?
 

Bletchleyite

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Is this policy going to rule out using the train for shopping trips thereby forcing people to use their car if they want to purchase any alcohol?

No, as there is no national "dry train" policy, and the two "TOCs" who do have that policy, LO and Merseyrail, permit carrying unopened alcohol as long as it remains unopened.
 

LowLevel

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There is an element of making a point about it as well. We have a few dry trains. They've largely been introduced as a result of large scale disorder (30 plus people riots spilling out on to platforms, wrecking trains, assaulting staff) and are basically publicised as 'if you can't behave this is how we will treat you'. BR went one further and pulled a load of services.

One thing it does do is highlights fighty types - if you kick off when someone takes a cheap can of beer off you it's probably best to get rid of you early.
 

al78

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Non-drinkers (and @Alanko sounds like one) will never understand the pleasure of a drink.
Drinkers will never understand how intimidating a drunk person can be even if they have no bad intentions.

:)

That is way too simplistic. It is not a choice between tee-total and getting plastered, it is a choice between not drinking, or drink but stop before losing control. It is possible to enjoy alcohol without abusing it, it is not a case of one extreme or the other.

If you can't drink without getting drunk to the point of being a nuisance/danger to others, then you need to seek help.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma
 
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