One Britain one nation?

[Gostav]

But why does being on the ERG wing matter? The point is, whatever wing they are on the Conservative party, and however much you might disagree with their politics on other areas, your argument here still seems to boil down to, you don't support this because they support it. And that doesn't seem a sensible rationale to me. If you look at the OBON aims and you can see something important that you can clearly say, I disagree with this because X, then that's a good reason to be opposed to them. But the fact that some right-wing Tory MPs support them isn't - to my mind - a good reason to oppose them.



Personally I wouldn't support that campaign - it looks far too expensive and completely OTT. Looks a bit daft and gimmicky too to me. But to be pedantic, I don't think it's correct to call it forced patriotism because the idea is only to offer portraits of the Queen to households. Forced patriotism would be if it was to make it obligatory for people to accept them and put them up (and obviously in a democracy that would totally unacceptable and wrong).

Looks a bit like this scene

 

[edwin_m]

But why does being on the ERG wing matter? The point is, whatever wing they are on the Conservative party, and however much you might disagree with their politics on other areas, your argument here still seems to boil down to, you don't support this because they support it. And that doesn't seem a sensible rationale to me. If you look at the OBON aims and you can see something important that you can clearly say, I disagree with this because X, then that's a good reason to be opposed to them. But the fact that some right-wing Tory MPs support them isn't - to my mind - a good reason to oppose them.

Subtle distinction. If some people we happen to disagree with support a particular cause, then that isn't a reason to condemn the cause. But if nearly all the people that support it are people we disagree with, and the people we do agree with don't support it, then that gives some grounds not to support it ourselves. And if people we disagree with are using the cause to further disagreeable purposes, that's a reason to oppose it.

 

[Geezertronic]

I remember being forced to regularly sing "Scotland the Brave" by our primary school teacher (who was Scottish) back in the 1980s - I attended a primary school in Coventry, and it's safe to say that she didn't like any of us kids

I do feel that as an Englishman, our National Anthem is not as inspiring as the Scottish or Welsh National Anthems - I do feel we have the bum deal using what I guess should be called the Commonwealth Royal Anthem

 

[Typhoon]

I do feel that as an Englishman, our National Anthem is not as inspiring as the Scottish or Welsh National Anthems - I do feel we have the bum deal using what I guess should be called the Commonwealth Royal Anthem

As an Englishman, I don't think we have a National Anthem (I suspect the Northern Ireland hasn't got one either for entirely understandable reasons). 'God Save the Queen' is the anthem for the whole of the UK. I don't think it can be called the Commonwealth Anthem, simply because Commonwealth countries like India and Nigeria have a President as their Head of State (not the Queen), and Rwanda and Mozambique were never even part of the Empire (so never had a British monarch as the Head of State. The National Anthem may not be inspiring but changing it would, I believe, be more divisive than OBON would ever be. It was the advantage of being relatively short and, for me as a cub scout, pretty easy to learn.

 

[johncrossley]

Secondly, I think we do have a growing issue of some British people not just merely being agnostic towards the UK, but of actively hating the UK.

You obviously know why. If you are genuinely serious about sorting this out, then why are you pointing the finger at people who are deeply unhappy about having their freedom taken away from them instead of the Brexiteers who are responsible for such unhappiness?

 

[AlterEgo]

You obviously know why. If you are genuinely serious about sorting this out, then why are you pointing the finger at people who are deeply unhappy about having their freedom taken away from them instead of the Brexiteers who are responsible for such unhappiness?

Nobody but you can sort out the unhappiness in your own heart.

 

[py_megapixel]

Nobody but you can sort out the unhappiness in your own heart.

What on earth are talking about?

 

[johncrossley]

Nobody but you can sort out the unhappiness in your own heart.

It can easily fixed by the government (or more likely a future government).

 

[alex397]

Nobody but you can sort out the unhappiness in your own heart.

So if any time a large section of a country’s population is really unhappy with what their government is doing, it’s up to individuals to sort out their own unhappiness? I shall tell that to some Belarusians.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Subtle distinction. If some people we happen to disagree with support a particular cause, then that isn't a reason to condemn the cause. But if nearly all the people that support it are people we disagree with, and the people we do agree with don't support it, then that gives some grounds not to support it ourselves.

So, even if you see nothing in the cause itself to disagree with, you'll refuse to support it if only people on 'the other side' are supporting it? So you refuse to support it just because no-one else on the left (if your side is the left) supports it. Other people on the left take the same line, and you inevitably end up with only people on the right supporting the cause - not because there's anything intrinsically right-wing about the cause, but purely because no-one on the left will support it unless lots of other people on the left are already supporting it.

And that of course is how the nation becomes ever more divided and people become more convinced that they have nothing in common with 'the other lot', and you end up with absurdities like the situation for most of the last 20 years where the flag of our country has become in many people's eyes the almost exclusive preserve of the far right.

Or maybe just accept that 'the other lot' and people such as people on the right of the Tory party aren't actually intrinsically evil - they are simply people who have different opinions from you on many aspects of politics, but that shouldn't prevent you from being able to find common cause on some issues where you happen to agree?

And if people we disagree with are using the cause to further disagreeable purposes, that's a reason to oppose it.

Not really. In that (hypothetical) situation, by refusing to get involved with the cause, you're just giving the people you disagree with free reign to continue to use the cause however they wish.

(I regard that as hypothetical. In the case of OBON, I don't see any reason to think people are using it for a disagreeable purpose).

 

[Gloster]

As Flanders and Swann put it, “What English national song have we got? ‘Jerusalem‘...” Perhaps we should adopt their ‘Song of Patriotic Prejudice’. It starts ‘The English, the English, the English are best/ I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest’. (Sorry, i can’t do a link.)

 

[edwin_m]

So, even if you see nothing in the cause itself to disagree with, you'll refuse to support it if only people on 'the other side' are supporting it? So you refuse to support it just because no-one else on the left (if your side is the left) supports it. Other people on the left take the same line, and you inevitably end up with only people on the right supporting the cause - not because there's anything intrinsically right-wing about the cause, but purely because no-one on the left will support it unless lots of other people on the left are already supporting it.

And that of course is how the nation becomes ever more divided and people become more convinced that they have nothing in common with 'the other lot', and you end up with absurdities like the situation for most of the last 20 years where the flag of our country has become in many people's eyes the almost exclusive preserve of the far right.

Or maybe just accept that 'the other lot' and people such as people on the right of the Tory party aren't actually intrinsically evil - they are simply people who have different opinions from you on many aspects of politics, but that shouldn't prevent you from being able to find common cause on some issues where you happen to agree?



Not really. In that (hypothetical) situation, by refusing to get involved with the cause, you're just giving the people you disagree with free reign to continue to use the cause however they wish.

(I regard that as hypothetical. In the case of OBON, I don't see any reason to think people are using it for a disagreeable purpose).

Not "refuse to support", what I said was "give some grounds not to support". If I had to form a firm opinion one way or the other about this proposal, I'd weigh up the information available to me, and one of the factors would be whether people whose judgment I tend to trust are in support of it. It has to be said that if someone supports Brexit, I'm less likely to trust their judgment on anything else.

I'm by nature a centrist, and I regard both the flag-wrapping activities of the current Tory government (and of Starmer when he does that) and some of the more extreme manifestations of "woke" as divisive. But I find the latter a more foregiveable error, coming from a particular background and mindset that I don't share. The actions from the right are often deliberately divisive in order to exploit the consequences.

 

[AlterEgo]

So if any time a large section of a country’s population is really unhappy with what their government is doing, it’s up to individuals to sort out their own unhappiness? I shall tell that to some Belarusians.

Well done for comparing a referendum on membership of a trade bloc to the wholesale human rights abuses of Belarus. Quite the stretch, especially when I was addressing the poster personally and not giving a general political appraisal.

Take this from a remain voter - people who are unhappy that a plurality of their countrymen voted to withdraw from a trade bloc, with all its consequences, are better off devoting their energies into coming to terms with it (at least in the short/immediate term!) instead of withdrawing into active dislike of their own country and their fellow citizens. Such an approach merely hardens the attitudes of your opponents and will even, to them, justify their decision further. Having a misanthropic worldview is narcissistic, self-centred and those are the main reasons misanthropes aren't great fun to be around. Adults who insist their personal happiness - and the level of antipathy they feel towards others - depends on specific political actions being achieved in a country of 66 million people reduce themselves to little more than driftwood floating on the current, with no agency, no responsibility, and no self-respect.

You have a great deal of control in life over whether you are happy; more than you think. And, you can still try to change things you don't like.

The OBON stuff is still very funny and ridiculous, though, just to bring it back on topic.

But I find the latter a more foregiveable error, coming from a particular background and mindset that I don't share. The actions from the right are often deliberately divisive in order to exploit the consequences.

Yes they are indeed, and if you get wound by them, you lose the game. The right wing in Anglophone countries has been very successful in the last ten years by basically trolling online left wingers who cannot help themselves. I'm thinking of Trump and his transgender ban in the military as a prime example of the genre, which was appalling but caused a fallout he and his ilk could whip up in the short term.

As Flanders and Swann put it, “What English national song have we got? ‘Jerusalem‘...” Perhaps we should adopt their ‘Song of Patriotic Prejudice’. It starts ‘The English, the English, the English are best/ I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest’. (Sorry, i can’t do a link.)

Never heard of this song before but some of the lyrics are...very of the time!

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!
The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood!

 

[brad465]

I remember being forced to regularly sing "Scotland the Brave" by our primary school teacher (who was Scottish) back in the 1980s - I attended a primary school in Coventry, and it's safe to say that she didn't like any of us kids

I do feel that as an Englishman, our National Anthem is not as inspiring as the Scottish or Welsh National Anthems - I do feel we have the bum deal using what I guess should be called the Commonwealth Royal Anthem

A long time ago (in the days of the Jacobite rebellion), the National Anthem actually had this verse:

"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King."

 

[D6130]

A long time ago (in the days of the Jacobite rebellion), the National Anthem actually had this verse:

"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King."

One of several reasons why most Scots dislike singing that awful dirge!

 

[DerekC]

Actually I'd suggest that the extraordinary reaction to this by some left-wing politicians and by quite a few people here provides the possible clue as to why OBON photos might mainly feature predominantly right-wing politicians. If left-wing politicians choose (for reasons that I cannot fathom) to shun and mock a good cause, then they've basically excluded themselves and the obvious result is going to be mainly right-wing politicians in photos supporting that cause. Perhaps if politicians on the left could learn a bit of civic pride, it would be different?

This is all part of the Borisovist Party's "culture wars". The idea is to put out lots of flag-waving patriotism which they know is alien to many Brits outside their political clique and label any dissent as being unpatriotic. Here they have found a fairly cringeworthy song which wouldn't have been noticed at all outside the local area, had they not given it DfE backing and turned it into a national issue guaranteed to make people take sides.

 

[Typhoon]

As Flanders and Swann put it, “What English national song have we got? ‘Jerusalem‘...” Perhaps we should adopt their ‘Song of Patriotic Prejudice’. It starts ‘The English, the English, the English are best/ I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest’. (Sorry, i can’t do a link.)

Lyrics at http://anthem4england.co.uk/anthems/a-song-of-patriotic-prejudice/

A Song of Patriotic Prejudice
The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest.

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We’ve left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You’ll find he’s a stinker, as likely as not.

The Scotsman is mean, as we’re all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn’t got bishops to show him the way!

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn’t give tuppence for all of the rest.
The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth

He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!
The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price

The Welshman’s dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!

The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.

And all the world over, each nation’s the same
They’ve simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they’ve won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.
It’s not that they’re wicked or naturally bad
It’s knowing they’re foreign that makes them so mad!

 

[colchesterken]

Cat among the Pigeons ALERT. I am proud to be English, East End. London
However I think as a nation we need to come to terms of who and where we are
We no longer have an Empire or like Queen Victoria's time rule 25% of the world
We need to settle down to the fact we are a medium size country who are dependant on other countries in a way we never were, There is a vid on You Tube of locomotives loading onto a ship at Liverpool for export to Spain (1960 ) now we buy trains from Spain, we are building houses on farmland and getting Corn Flakes from abroad, we are dependant on all sorts, around the world, we want free trade what do we have to offer Lawyers & Bankers. My heart sank when I heard we were winding up the Russians by sailing our warship in their boating lake. We could not win a war now
I met some Dutch people on holiday in France politics came up they said "we just pull the hat down and let it happen" is that a lesson for us

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This is all part of the Borisovist Party's "culture wars". The idea is to put out lots of flag-waving patriotism which they know is alien to many Brits outside their political clique and label any dissent as being unpatriotic. Here they have found a fairly cringeworthy song which wouldn't have been noticed at all outside the local area, had they not given it DfE backing and turned it into a national issue guaranteed to make people take sides.

Wow, such an elaborate conspiracy theory! I'm sure Donald Trump would be proud of you for inventing all that! And I for one take my hat off to your vivid imagination!

 

[edwin_m]

Wow, such an elaborate conspiracy theory! I'm sure Donald Trump would be proud of you for inventing all that! And I for one take my hat off to your vivid imagination!

Trump would take his hat of to whoever is following his technique.

 

[birchesgreen]

It

Wow, such an elaborate conspiracy theory! I'm sure Donald Trump would be proud of you for inventing all that! And I for one take my hat off to your vivid imagination!

Not really that elaborate a conspiracy, not exactly US/lizard people bases under Cairo level.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It

Not really that elaborate a conspiracy, not exactly US/lizard people bases under Cairo level.

Haha. Not heard of a lizard people one but yeah it doesn't match that level