One hour bus ticket in London

[Deerfold]

What are the Croydon team feeder routes?

The tram feeder routes were originally the T31, T32 and T33. The 130 and 314 also had this feature added.

The bus services in the area have since been rearranged somewhat so the buses that now allow one fare for a tram and bus journey are routes 64, 130, 314, 353, 359, 433 and 464.

 

[Busaholic]

That problem already existed even without the hopper ticket. Firstly, if your journey involved taking a bus, then getting a train or tube shortly before peak fares kick in, a delay to the bus journey could result in your paying peak fares for the subsequent rail journey.

Secondly, if travelling late at night on multiple buses, a delay to the first bus could result in the next bus being timed as next-day, which would result in higher fares if you were close to the daily cap.

I'll grant that those (especially the 2nd one) are likely to be less common than someone using multiple bus journeys, but the fact that you don't ever hear about complaints about people paying more in those situations rather suggests to me that the hopper ticket will work fine in that regard too.

It also crosses my mind that, if someone really is so close to the hour on their first journey that a delay pushes them over the 70 minutes that appears to be the actual window, then they were probably making quite a long journey in the first place - and therefore possibly not within the target market for the hopper fare (although that in itself probably won't stop people complaining if they feel like it).

I'd just like to point out that running time for the journey on the 73 between Victoria and Stoke Newington has DOUBLED in the peak over the last ten years - this is the most extreme example I know of, but plenty of others have increased by a third or half. The areas of London where tubes are non-existent or only available with a fairly long (in time) bus journey are the areas which Sadiq Javid presumably had in mind with this measure, but these are the same ones which will get least benefit. 90 minute transfers have been mentioned by others here in the context of foreign cities, many, like Dublin, much smaller than London and maybe should have been adopted here. I still say cap the Oyster fare at two bus journeys per 24 hours, but increase the single fare by 20% to £1.80, which is commensurate with minimum bus fares in many other British towns/cities.

 

[MikeWh]

Missed this bit about making a rail journey between two bus journeys being eligible for the hopper fare from 2018.

That looks to me to a step towards multi modal single journey through ticketing at one overall fare. Not the "full monty" obviously but interesting nonetheless.

I don't expect it to be anything like multi modal single journey through ticketing. The rail journey will still be charged as it currently is, but it's prescence will not cause the system to forget that a bus hopper period is still open.

 

[jon0844]

If you had a 30 minute bus journey that was delayed by 40 minutes due to a road traffic accident and the final bit of your journey was short, then you could get over the limit. This is rare mind you.

With the position of every bus being known, it would be possible in software to account for that - if someone really wanted to do it.

 

[Mojo]

I don't expect it to be anything like multi modal single journey through ticketing. The rail journey will still be charged as it currently is, but it's prescence will not cause the system to forget that a bus hopper period is still open.

I wonder if a side effect of this will mean that touching on a bus will no longer cancel an OSI? Hope not!

 

[matt_world2004]

With the position of every bus being known, it would be possible in software to account for that - if someone really wanted to do it.

If the journey is turned it is still possible to get a transfer ticket and with three hour peak running time routes like the x26 that facility is not going to go away.

 

[trainmania100]

With the amount of traffic in some parts of london 1 hour wont get you very far

 

[Tetchytyke]

With the amount of traffic in some parts of london 1 hour wont get you very far

It's not designed to get you far. It's designed to cover short journeys like Muswell Hill to Highgate which require two buses* because of how the bus routes are designed.

*No, the 603 doesn't count.

 

[Blindtraveler]

A quick Q from my Wife here who like me is a regular visiter to London...How does the 2nd journey within the limmit appear on your card statement? Does it show as 2 lots of charges then a refund of 1 of them or does it appear as 1 transaction with no entry for the 2nd journey?

 

[PeterC]

A quick Q from my Wife here who like me is a regular visiter to London...How does the 2nd journey within the limmit appear on your card statement? Does it show as 2 lots of charges then a refund of 1 of them or does it appear as 1 transaction with no entry for the 2nd journey?

In another thread it is said that only a single debit is raised for all journeys in a day.

I would expect the TfL Oyster statement to show all journeys even if zero cost.

 

[londonbridge]

I would expect the TfL Oyster statement to show all journeys even if zero cost.

I'll confirm it does. Last week I made a day trip to Birmingham, took one bus to East Croydon then train and tube to Marylebone. Last train from New Street, arrived Euston 1.10am. Used two night buses to Victoria for 2.00am train (which was bustituted, as it turned out)! Second night bus shows on my statement with a charge of £0.00.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another point which may or may not have been mentioned, was on an X26 yesterday, in the dispenser where they usually put the Epsom Coaches brochures were some leaflets about the hopper fare. It included a section headed "Travel around 4.30" which said "contactless users whose first touch is before 4.30am and whose second touch is after 4.30am will need to pay again. This issue does not affect Oyster cards". If you did find yourself in this situation would you not have a case against TFL for a refund of the second charge??

 

[plcd1]

Another point which may or may not have been mentioned, was on an X26 yesterday, in the dispenser where they usually put the Epsom Coaches brochures were some leaflets about the hopper fare. It included a section headed "Travel around 4.30" which said "contactless users whose first touch is before 4.30am and whose second touch is after 4.30am will need to pay again. This issue does not affect Oyster cards". If you did find yourself in this situation would you not have a case against TFL for a refund of the second charge??

That "glitch" with contactless processing was mentioned in the Mayoral Direction about Hopper Fares. However it was supposed to be resolved within a few days of launch. Surprised a leaflet was produced that's still in circulation after the date when the problem should have been resolved.

Here's the relevant paragraph from the Mayoral Decision

When the Hopper is formally launched on 12 September, contactless payment cards will not recognise the free Hopper journey if it falls into the next day ie if the first bus journey takes place just before the 0430 end of day time and the second Hopper journey just after 0430. Customers will therefore be charged two single fares, This issue will be rectified by 15 September. In the interim, fare corrections will be sent to customers’ payment card accounts, within a week of the second journey charge being incurred.

 

[infobleep]

This morning a K2 broke down and people tried to board the K3 I was on. The bus driver insisted they get a ticket showing their entitlement to travel. Some passengers were not happy about this.

One had a pass he said. I thought why don't you just show that then. I think he didn't wish to get out as didn't like the idea of being inconvenienced in the first place.

Eventually they got off to go to the other bus to get a ticket and our bus driver waited. I thought to myself, why don't they just use the hopper fare. They can't all have travelled for over an hour.

One young person shortly explained to the driver he was doing just that.

Then I realised, I've not heard any announcements on buses about the hopper fare. Surely that's where it should be announced.

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[IanD]

This morning a K2 broke down and people tried to board the K3 I was on. The bus driver insisted they get a ticket showing their entitlement to travel. Some passengers were not happy about this.
...
I thought to myself, why don't they just use the hopper fare. They can't all have travelled for over an hour.

Perhaps some of them wanted to get another bus. Using the hopper fare on the K3 would have meant they would be charged an extra £1.50 on what would then be their third bus.

 

[infobleep]

Perhaps some of them wanted to get another bus. Using the hopper fare on the K3 would have meant they would be charged an extra £1.50 on what would then be their third bus.

Good point. I'd forgotten it only allows two buses. So the connections ticket is mMyost definitely required.

That equally could be advertised better. It wasn't just one person trying to board the bus without such a thing but a few.

The broken down bus was of course directly in front of us.

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[plcd1]

Perhaps some of them wanted to get another bus. Using the hopper fare on the K3 would have meant they would be charged an extra £1.50 on what would then be their third bus.

Spot on. The introduction of the Hopper ticket in no way removes the need for transfer tickets. There are plenty of scenarios where passengers should receive them so they are not financially penalised if they have to transfer to a second bus and they using PAYG for their journey.

 

[infobleep]

Due to the bus I was on being delayed and thus further delayed on route, the bus 15 minutes later caught up with it. So I decided to try out the hooper fare and switch buses.

Due to passengers numbers, traffic and traffic lights, the other bus did go ahead of us again buy a couple of minutes but as I was late anyway, thought I might as well try it out.

It just bleeped no differently to otherwise. I thought there might be a different sound of bleep to confirm you've done this.

Of course those two minute difference was based on a bus app. We then practically caught up with the other bus due to traffic.

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[jon0844]

Saved £1.50 today getting the 192 from Tottenham Hale to Ikea, going in, getting my shopping and coming out to get a 192 back. Within the hour and free!

I wonder how many people will save by getting a bus somewhere (post office) and getting a free ride home?

 

[PeterC]

It won't suprise me if, once Oyster all goes to the back office, they start to disallow return journeys.

 

[IanD]

It won't suprise me if, once Oyster all goes to the back office, they start to disallow return journeys.

Can they tell which way you're travelling? Even so, there are plenty of routes where you can get a different service in each direction.

Saved £1.50 today getting the 192 from Tottenham Hale to Ikea, going in, getting my shopping and coming out to get a 192 back. Within the hour and free!

I wonder how many people will save by getting a bus somewhere (post office) and getting a free ride home?

Result for me on Saturday too - although a linear rather than return journey. Caught a 215 from Sewardstone to Chingford Mount, spent 35 minutes in the King's Ford and £1.70 on a pint (using CAMRA Wetherspoon's voucher) then got the 158 home to Walthamstow within the hour. I'd have normally changed at Crooked Billet and just jumped on the next bus.

 

[Deerfold]

Can they tell which way you're travelling? Even so, there are plenty of routes where you can get a different service in each direction.

On a single route, yes they can. On multiple routes it's trickier, but wouldn't be impossible.

I doubt they'll stop this working for the few people who can have a bus trip and do whatever they're doing and wait for a return bus in an hour.

I've had this be useful for me, preventing an embarassing charge. I was futher along a route I use than usual, having arrived by a different route. I ran to get a bus and jumped on. Halfway to the next stop I realise I was going in the wrong direction, got off and got the next bus in the other direction. I was probably one bus later than I would have been and a little embarrassed, but at least I wasn't also down £1.50.

 

[plcd1]

Can they tell which way you're travelling? Even so, there are plenty of routes where you can get a different service in each direction.

Yes they can because the stop ID changes automatically on the ETM as the bus moves along. Therefore when you touch in on the card reader the captured transaction data includes the bus stop ID as well as bus routes, trip number, route etc. From all this TfL can certainly determine which way you are travelling. If you change buses and touch in again then they can reasonably impute where you may have alighted from the 1st bus based on where you board the second. This, of course, assumes you board the 2nd bus not long after the expected journey time from your first stop.

In those cases where people are doing the shopping or having a quick pint and returning I doubt TfL can impute the journey *purpose* but they can probably "guess" people may be making a return trip - especially if there is only one route there and back.

There are certainly a few journeys I make where I'd now be getting a free return trip home if I was using PAYG on the buses. I'm sure people who are benefitting think it's lovely but I really don't think people should get a return trip for nothing. Where you *have* to change to make a journey in one direction then I think that's fair enough as a policy. I remain fearful that the bus network will be "bankrupt" by the time we get to 2020 and the scale of fare increases needed then will be enormous thus triggering a massive fall in patronage. This would be a ludicrous policy outcome.

 

[PeterC]

I remain fearful that the bus network will be "bankrupt" by the time we get to 2020 and the scale of fare increases needed then will be enormous thus triggering a massive fall in patronage. This would be a ludicrous policy outcome.

I know from my own business that relatively frequent small increments in pricing are the way to go. Never big enough to hurt and put off the customer and your income and expenditure keep in step. Trying to hold prices always ends up with needing an increase that people notice and you loose custom.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes they can because the stop ID changes automatically on the ETM as the bus moves along. Therefore when you touch in on the card reader the captured transaction data includes the bus stop ID as well as bus routes, trip number, route etc. From all this TfL can certainly determine which way you are travelling. If you change buses and touch in again then they can reasonably impute where you may have alighted from the 1st bus based on where you board the second. This, of course, assumes you board the 2nd bus not long after the expected journey time from your first stop.

In those cases where people are doing the shopping or having a quick pint and returning I doubt TfL can impute the journey *purpose* but they can probably "guess" people may be making a return trip - especially if there is only one route there and back.

There are certainly a few journeys I make where I'd now be getting a free return trip home if I was using PAYG on the buses. I'm sure people who are benefitting think it's lovely but I really don't think people should get a return trip for nothing. Where you *have* to change to make a journey in one direction then I think that's fair enough as a policy. I remain fearful that the bus network will be "bankrupt" by the time we get to 2020 and the scale of fare increases needed then will be enormous thus triggering a massive fall in patronage. This would be a ludicrous policy outcome.

I still think that the Mayor/TfL missed a trick with the 'hopper' initiative, in that they could/should have increased the Oyster fare, but capped it at two fares daily. A fare of £1.80 or £1.90 would have been no more than the minimum fare in many places (and a lot less than in some) and would not put off too many occasional bus users , thus raising revenue, but would not have inconvenienced those who of necessity have to use more than one bus in each direction for work/hospital/social reasons, and who might worry about the 60/70 minute transfer time. On the latter subject, yet more (temporary) cutbacks to buses include not just the 42 terminating short of Tower Bridge, but the 47 abandoning the Tooley Street to Liverpool Street/Shoreditch section of route and the 43 cut back from London Bridge Station to Finsbury Square because of roadworks at Upper Holloway! One gets the horrible feeling of decline in London Buses again, notwithstanding the physical number of buses in circulation, with passengers voting with their feet in those areas where they have a viable alternative. The main problem with the circulating is that it is being done at an ever-decreasing speed.