OO gauge and HO gauge

[Masboroughlad]

Going to start building my model railway soon (I hope!)

I am wondering whether HO models - scenery, locos etc would look out of place with OO stuff?

What exactly is the difference?
Is the track gauge the same?
OO is 1:76? What is HO?

I've been looking at some NOCH HO accessories, but if they look silly alongside, I won't bother!

(Why were to such closely sized scales ever made in the first place? Is it something to do with imperial measurement vs metric?)

 

[gazthomas]

OO is 1:76 scale, while HO is 1:87. They use the same track gauge. OO models are therefore a little oversized compared to HO. There is a lot of information out there if you Google it

 

[AM9]

Going to start building my model railway soon (I hope!)

I am wondering whether HO models - scenery, locos etc would look out of place with OO stuff?

What exactly is the difference

00 is 4mm to 1 foot, H0 is 3.5mm to 1 foot. The initial 'HO' stand for half 0, half of 7mm to 1 foot.

Is the track gauge the same?

The track gauge is the same to get the benefit of volume production of gauge-dependent components, e.g. wheelsets and track. At the time of introduction, it was felt that the visual difference was insignificant to the majority of the target market (in the UK). H0 is 16.5mm x 87 = 1435.5mm, - representing a scale gauge just 0.5mm greater than the prototype. 16.5mm gauge scaled up at 1:76.2 is 1257mm (or 4ft 1 1/2 in.).

OO is 1:76? What is HO?

H0 is 1:87 and 00 is actually 1:76.2 ...

(Why were to such closely sized scales ever made in the first place? Is it something to do with imperial measurement vs metric?)

H0 was introduced between the wars when a market for models smaller than the then current 'home' scale of 0 gauge (7mm to the foot). It had became viable to mass produce electric (and clockwork) driven models that could be fitted into mainline railway body profiles built to a scale small enough to be used on table tops and half that of 0 gauge fitted the bill. When this market was opened up in the UK, the German manufacturer Bing chose to use the scale of 4mm to the foot for models of UK prototypes as it would be uneconomic to fit motors into the smaller UK profile.* The Meccano company introduced Hornby Dublo (i.e.00) as a 4mm to the foot range in 1938. This effectively launched 00 scale as the UK standard which for reasons stated above, ran on 16.5mm gauge track. After WWII, Tri-ang quickly set up in competition with Hornby Dublo and the standard became set in stone to the present day. Some fine scale modellers have over the years created track standards with a gauge closer to the 4mm to the foot equivalent (approximately 18.83mm) with various new modelling standards, e.g. EM gauge which is 18.2mm and Protofour (now P4) which is 18.83. As is the case of many hobby practices, there is often an extreme side to 4mm to the foot rail modelling and the P4 groups have devised the associated S4 standard which amongst other things makes the wheel back to back dimension exactly the same as on the prototype meaning that what started as a house-friendly standard, now has track curve constraints the same as the prototype. It's no surprise to me that such a hobby includes people from all along the psychology spectrum.

* bear in mind that most of the model locomotives in the '20s were of steam prototypes where it was necessary to fit the drive within the boiler profile. Had diesel/electric locos been common and in demand, the problem would not have been so acute.

 

[Journeyman]

Going to start building my model railway soon (I hope!)

I am wondering whether HO models - scenery, locos etc would look out of place with OO stuff?

What exactly is the difference?
Is the track gauge the same?
OO is 1:76? What is HO?

I've been looking at some NOCH HO accessories, but if they look silly alongside, I won't bother!

(Why were to such closely sized scales ever made in the first place? Is it something to do with imperial measurement vs metric?)

Plenty of good replies so far as to what the differences are and how they came about. As to whether you can mix stuff - to some extent it depends how fussy you are. Scenic items like trees, walls, fences etc can be used easily for either, but buildings and rolling stock generally don't mix at all well, as HO items will be decidedly smaller. If you're modelling a British prototype, HO buildings and scenic items will also look a bit "foreign" as there don't tend to be any HO models of British stuff. Lima produced a limited range of UK HO models in the seventies, but abandoned it fairly quickly as demand was very low, and it was incompatible with the already well-established Hornby range.

 

[big all]

there are little tricks that i used to use
for example made a trix transpennine up to 6 car from trix coaches which off courses are so now they wont look exactly right with say triang met cammels
now if you swap the tranpennine wheels for 14mm jackson wheels and a couple off washers on the bogie pivot to raise it and 12mm jacksons with brass cup bearing on the met cammel they dont look too bad.
yes the buffers on the met camel are a fraction lower but the roof line where your eye is drawn whilst a compromise and perhaps a couple millimeters low and the underframe a couple milimetres high it looks ok
there are all sorts off other trick like choosing stripy liveries like blue and grey to detract the eye

 

[SCH117X]

Figures are interesting as in the OO/4mm world everyone is typically the same height adult or child so with care some HO figures can be mixed in without appearing odd - avoid things like HO Policemen which will look oddly small but HO adults in non formal clothing can quite easily be become OO teenagers. The other trick is to use HO figures and buildings to the rear of a layout to cause a forced perspective

 

[Cowley]

Figures are interesting as in the OO/4mm world everyone is typically the same height adult or child so with care some HO figures can be mixed in without appearing odd - avoid things like HO Policemen which will look oddly small but HO adults in non formal clothing can quite easily be become OO teenagers. The other trick is to use HO figures and buildings to the rear of a layout to cause a forced perspective

I was just going to say that about using smaller scales. It can be quite good fun playing with forced perspective.

It's a shame that we've ended up stuck with the compromised 00 system in some ways.
If a brand new range had been started when the new generation of (Chinese manufacturered) models were launched twenty years ago, I wonder how many would've jumped ship and just modelled in HO scale?
I think I probably would've, and I think I would've stuck with it rather than changing to N gauge which I'm currently doing.
I can't quite get beyond the narrow track vs large stock aspect of 00, and I don't feel confident enough to try doing P4...

 

[big all]

worth mentioning was it dinky 'corgie' and matchbox and other model makers all went for 7mm and 4mm scales cars and lorries unless my memories are clouded like the cider i am enjoying

 

[AM9]

... I can't quite get beyond the narrow track vs large stock aspect of 00, and I don't feel confident enough to try doing P4...

I think that it is a very special type of person who commits to the full discipline of P4, and anybody who thinks that they can spot the difference between P4 and S4 with naked eyes needs to get out more.

 

[Bevan Price]

"Commercial" models of locos & rolling stock sold for OO and HO use different types of coupling. You can change couplings yourself, if you want. Personally I think the smaller coupling used on "European" HO stock looks a lot neater than the larger couplings used on OO stock.

(Hornby Dublo used a different types of small coupling, totally different to either of the other types of coupling. Did the large coupling used on OO stock originate with Triang from their early "toy train" years ? )

 

[big all]

"Commercial" models of locos & rolling stock sold for OO and HO use different types of coupling. You can change couplings yourself, if you want. Personally I think the smaller coupling used on "European" HO stock looks a lot neater than the larger couplings used on OO stock.

(Hornby Dublo used a different types of small coupling, totally different to either of the other types of coupling. Did the large coupling used on OO stock originate with Triang from their early "toy train" years ? )

it was quite good you could get a hornby/triang coupling converter for about 35p it was a coal wagon/horse box or other i
cant remember
it was a less than half price way to buy a wagon to try and connect

the idea was try and make you connect to triang or hornby as the system you dont naturally connect to

 

[trash80]

I bought a second-hand HO (or HOe to be precise) coach last year, someone had put some seated pax in it but i think they used OO figures as it looks like the incredible hulk is on the train

 

[GusB]

I think the adoption of EM/P4 has probably been hindered by the lack of availability of pre-made track. While there are probably a lot of masochists modellers who take pride in building their own track (regardless of gauge/scale), having to modify existing stock and build track would certainly put me off.

I found this link from Peco in 2018: https://peco-uk.com/blogs/industry-...-commissions-ready-to-lay-trackwork-from-peco

We can reveal that the EM Gauge Society, which was formed in 1955 to promote modelling in 4mm scale with a track gauge of 18.2mm, has commissioned Peco to manufacture items of ‘ready-to-lay’ bullhead wooden-sleepered trackwork.
With design work already at an advanced stage (undertaken to the Society’s own specifications), there will be left- and right-hand two-way points (to B6 geometry), together with plain track.

The points are set to feature solid metal blades and parallel sleepering (perpendicular to the straight route) – with sleeper length and spacing as per the prototype. To be supplied as Electrofrog only, with closure rails bonded to the frog rails and blades bonded to adjacent stock rails. The manufacturer’s existing code 75 bullhead rail will be used, whilst the existing Peco bullhead rail joiners will also be suitable for use with the EM gauge items.

Plain track will be supplied in 914mm lengths, but with the sleeper base split into scale 60' lengths; the sleeper spacing will be reduced on sleepers positioned at the ends of adjoining panels, as per prototype practice. CAD renders of this new trackwork range are reproduced above. It is planned to have 3D-printed samples on display at this year’s Warley National Model Railway exhibition (see separate story).

These items will be available to members via the EMGS stores and also visitors to EMGS expos. Price information is still to be finalised but it is hoped that plain track will be available at the EMGS AGM in December and the points in Spring 2019. For further details about the Society, including membership benefits and how to join:
www.emgs.org

I believe there's an existing market for replacement wheelsets for rolling stock, so perhaps this is what's needed to overcome the chicken-and-egg situation.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Hi, seeing this thread made me wonder something also to do with H0 & 00 Gauge railway models. I have a double 0 gauge layout with mainly 00 gauge locos, carriages and wagons, but I do have some European carriages which are H0 gauge, made by Lima, Lilliput etc. The majority of these are about the same length as my Hornby/Tri-ang & Lima Carriages, around 10 inches, however a couple, also by Lima H0 gauge are a couple of inches shorter about 7-8 inches and not quite as high which surprised me when they arrived. Did Lima have a lower cost range of model in the past perhaps which maybe these were part of?

 

[Cowley]

Hi, seeing this thread made me wonder something also to do with H0 & 00 Gauge railway models. I have a double 0 gauge layout with mainly 00 gauge locos, carriages and wagons, but I do have some European carriages which are H0 gauge, made by Lima, Lilliput etc. The majority of these are about the same length as my Hornby/Tri-ang & Lima Carriages, around 10 inches, however a couple, also by Lima H0 gauge are a couple of inches shorter about 7-8 inches and not quite as high which surprised me when they arrived. Did Lima have a lower cost range of model in the past perhaps which maybe these were part of?

I don't know the answer Steve, but Lima did compromise on certain things years ago, for instance I think that their 50 and 55 had smaller bogies than they should've had, yet the 37 which came along later had the bogies of the correct size. Is that right does anyone know?
Hornby of course used to make mk3s that were too short.

 

[J-Rod]

Going back to the original question, whether H0 scenery would look out of place amongst 00... I'd say not really, for the most part. Real life isn't all one size.

However, that being said, I've got a bunch of old Jouef Citroen DS models which are in H0 and they do seem noticeably smaller when placed next to one of the Oxford Diecast 00 models (and aren't as nice, being alot older), so I've created a scrap yard/DS specialist (!) where they can all live. In a heap. Being on their own, they don't look out of scale at all.

About the 4mm/EM/P4 stuff, I guess it's what you want to get out of modelling. Wouldn't be my thing but neither is modelling in 0 or 1. Would do N... but the light in the loft is bad enough as it is..!!

Hornby of course used to make mk3s that were too short.

Yes. FAR too short.

 

[SCH117X]

worth mentioning was it dinky 'corgie' and matchbox and other model makers all went for 7mm and 4mm scales cars and lorries unless my memories are clouded like the cider i am enjoying

The small Matchbox vehicles were originally designed to fit the size of their boxes so the scales varied tremendously but typically 1:64th. Its only in recent years with the arrival of Oxford, Base Toys, and Pocketbond that their have been a number of 4mm (1:76th) models.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think that a lot of early equipment was regarded as "toys" rather than "models", and sometimes had only a superficial resemblance to the real trains. That certainly applied to much of the pre-WW2 Hornby O guage stock, with, for example, LMSR "Royal Scot" 4-4-2s.

In UK, it was probably the arrival of Hornby Dublo that started the trend towards more somewhat realistic stock, although a model of a LNER Class N2 0-6-2T was also issued in a version pretending to be a LMSR (ex-LNWR) Webb 0-6-2T; also in some coach models, windows were represented by silver paint on the body sides.

 

[plarailfan]

The Lima class 50 and Deltic models were originally going to be produced to HO scale, but then, for some reason, they did make make them OO gauge, but the trouble was, that the moulds for the bogies had already been designed to HO scale and Lima went on to make the models to the OO dimensions, but still using the HO bogies and that's how they left the Deltic and class 50 right up until Lima ceased trading. Some brave people have converted the chassis to take the Lima class 37 bogies, which came along later and are the correct size for OO gauge.

 

[Cowley]

The Lima class 50 and Deltic models were originally going to be produced to HO scale, but then, for some reason, they did make make them OO gauge, but the trouble was, that the moulds for the bogies had already been designed to HO scale and Lima went on to make the models to the OO dimensions, but still using the HO bogies and that's how they left the Deltic and class 50 right up until Lima ceased trading. Some brave people have converted the chassis to take the Lima class 37 bogies, which came along later and are the correct size for OO gauge.

That makes sense. Thanks for filling the gaps in there.
It wasn't until Hornby bought out its class 50, and Bachmann their Deltic, that 00 modellers had a decent version of each of those popular machines to purchase and enjoy then.

 

[GusB]

I don't know the answer Steve, but Lima did compromise on certain things years ago, for instance I think that their 50 and 55 had smaller bogies than they should've had, yet the 37 which came along later had the bogies of the correct size. Is that right does anyone know?
Hornby of course used to make mk3s that were too short.

The Lima class 50 and Deltic models were originally going to be produced to HO scale, but then, for some reason, they did make make them OO gauge, but the trouble was, that the moulds for the bogies had already been designed to HO scale and Lima went on to make the models to the OO dimensions, but still using the HO bogies and that's how they left the Deltic and class 50 right up until Lima ceased trading. Some brave people have converted the chassis to take the Lima class 37 bogies, which came along later and are the correct size for OO gauge.

Did all three classes actually share the same bogies? I vaguely recall mutterings from people at my local model railway club that this was the case. I was vilified (probably rightly so) for trying to run my Hornby 37 on the club layout at the time (it used class 47 bogies if I remember correctly).

I wonder where we'd be now if Lima had persisted with their HO range. With respect to buildings, many of the continental manufacturers produced some superb kits and, while they may have had a distinctly continental flavour, those inclined to do a bit of kit-bashing wouldn't have found it too much of a challenge to adapt them to have a slightly more domestic look. With road vehicles, we didn't have nearly the same range. I think it was EFE that came along and introduced 1:76 models, and the OO modeller is better off now.

 

[Journeyman]

Did all three classes actually share the same bogies? I vaguely recall mutterings from people at my local model railway club that this was the case. I was vilified (probably rightly so) for trying to run my Hornby 37 on the club layout at the time (it used class 47 bogies if I remember correctly).

Yes - Deltics, 37s and 50s have identical bogies, certainly in appearance anyway. I think the gearing and motors are different in each case, but that won't affect models.

The later Hornby 37s used 47 bogies, and the earlier ones used 31 bogies! Diesel modellers in the seventies were very poorly supported, and there were far too many low-quality mashups like this.

Hornby's first really good quality modern-image model, in my opinion, was the Class 110 DMU. Prior to that, it was all a bit approximate.

 

[Cowley]

Yes - Deltics, 37s and 50s have identical bogies, certainly in appearance anyway. I think the gearing and motors are different in each case, but that won't affect models.

The later Hornby 37s used 47 bogies, and the earlier ones used 31 bogies! Diesel modellers in the seventies were very poorly supported, and there were far too many low-quality mashups like this.

Hornby's first really good quality modern-image model, in my opinion, was the Class 110 DMU. Prior to that, it was all a bit approximate.

That's right with the 37/50/55 bogies. I think there was another difference too - cast vs fabricated maybe?
I believe the 37/3s plus refurbished 37s and 50149 all had cast CP7 bogies?

And yes the 110 was a nice model. It really captured the character of the class.

 

[plarailfan]

If anyone likes the Lima Deltic, Hornby have continued producing them until quite recently, under the "Railroad" brand with a redesigned and improved motor, but it still has the HO scale bogies from when it was originally sold, way back in 1977 https://www.hattons.co.uk/164393/Ho...6_in_BR_green_Railroad_Range/StockDetail.aspx

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

That's right with the 37/50/55 bogies. I think there was another difference too - cast vs fabricated maybe?
I believe the 37/3s plus refurbished 37s and 50149 all had cast CP7 bogies?

And yes the 110 was a nice model. It really captured the character of the class.

I have a 110, I picked up 2nd hand but refurbished from a great little shop in Tooting a couple of years ago , oddly it runs better in reverse, IE when the motor carriage is at the back pushing, rather than at the front pulling. I do like those old DMUs, I have travelled on a few in recent years on preserved lines, the most recent being on the NNR and EVY in Derbyshire. The KWVR & Weardale also have single carriage versions which I have also travelled in and I would like to get a 00 gauge one of those too, in Green, (but not pay silly money for.)

 

[big all]

If anyone likes the Lima Deltic, Hornby have continued producing them until quite recently, under the "Railroad" brand with a redesigned and improved motor, but it still has the HO scale bogies from when it was originally sold, way back in 1977 https://www.hattons.co.uk/164393/Ho...6_in_BR_green_Railroad_Range/StockDetail.aspx

is that the same hattons about 40 years then in liverpool selling old hornby dublo stock for years after hornby dublo when bust

 

[SCH117X]

I wonder where we'd be now if Lima had persisted with their HO range.

Probably would have lead to Lima exiting the UK market quickly. Certainly at first glance that was the right time to try HO in the UK with the (Triang-)Hornby range at a pretty low point, and the others floundering - if Airfix and Palitoy (Mainline) had entered the market at the same time in HO rather than OO that could have the step change that was needed. On the other hand the Rivarossi tried entering the UK market with a Royal Scot that turned out to be 3.8mm scale as they simply could not design it down to 3.5mm scale (issuers regarding mechanisms and valve gear).

 

[J-Rod]

Why did you lot have to post so many links to Hattons? I now have more things I don't really need.

 

[Cowley]

Why did you lot have to post so many links to Hattons? I now have more things I don't really need.

 

[Journeyman]

Probably would have lead to Lima exiting the UK market quickly. Certainly at first glance that was the right time to try HO in the UK with the (Triang-)Hornby range at a pretty low point, and the others floundering - if Airfix and Palitoy (Mainline) had entered the market at the same time in HO rather than OO that could have the step change that was needed. On the other hand the Rivarossi tried entering the UK market with a Royal Scot that turned out to be 3.8mm scale as they simply could not design it down to 3.5mm scale (issuers regarding mechanisms and valve gear).

Can't argue with that, I know Lima weren't hugely regarded in later years but at the time they entered the UK market, the quality was pretty good compared to some of the rather poor Triang-Hornby stuff that was around. I guess it became clear fairly quickly that there was a much bigger potential market if you made stuff that was fully compatible with the established players in the market, and that HO was just too niche for most people to bother with in the UK.

I have seen one UK HO layout, it regularly appears at ModelRail Scotland, and features 70s Lima stuff alongside the few other UK HO models released by others - was Jouef a UK HO manufacturer? It looks reasonably good for models of that vintage, but I can see why it didn't last.