Open Access: Blackpool to Euston

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by Masboroughlad, 7 Apr 2015.

  1. Masboroughlad

    Masboroughlad Established Member

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    I am sure somebody will explain why to me......

    Alliance Rail have recently had an OA bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the GNWR brand rejected.

    Alliance Rail have just submitted an OA application bid for Blackpool to Euston starting in May 2017 under the Grand Central brand.

    If the GNWR bid got rejected, why wouldn't the Grand Central one be too?
     
  2. TheGrew

    TheGrew Member

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    Potentially asked for different paths? Would be difficult to know without reading through both proposals.
     
  3. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    Perhaps a lick of paint solves everything.:)
     
  4. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Do you have a link for a new application? I can't see one on the ORR website.
     
  5. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Perhaps they are trying again - although if they are going to duplicate franchised services they are unlikely to succeed, especially as VT (west coast) are likely to run more once Blackpool North is wired for OLE.
     
  6. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Seems a bit bizarre considering Euston becomes a building site during 2017, cant see ORR saying yes this time either.
     
  7. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    It's on the Alliance web site: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/2015/...rvices-proposed-between-blackpool-and-london/

    Looks just like one half of the previous (failed) Alliance bid, but operated by GC.
    Nothing mentioned about calling pattern. Nothing on the ORR web site on this yet.
     
  8. D60

    D60 Member

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    My understanding is that when a bid for paths for Blackpool to Euston was being made 2 or 3 years previously, such a bid was rejected due to shortage of available paths on the WCML (also for a Shrewsbury to Euston bid).. I used to use this fact in evidence to support the 'lack of capacity' justification for a duplicate North to South rail link...
    Can't remember whether the bidder then was VT, or DB-owned Alliance Rail, or both..
     
  9. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    The paths terminated at Queen's Park London as I recall.
     
  10. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

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    Not entirely surprising, given that ORR HQ is currently closed as a result of the Kingsway fire! Details can be found here.

    Under the circumstances, I suspect that keeping the website updated isn't exactly high on the list of priorities.
     
  11. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    One of the problems of running your own e-mail server. My work place moved to Google but they could have moved to Microsoft 365 which also would have been externally provided.
     
  12. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

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    Funnily enough when I tried to access the ORR website there was a message that they were currently without external communications because of a fire.
     
  13. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    GNWR put in application for a path every 2 hours from Leeds-Huddersfield-Warrington-Queens Park and for a path every 2 hours from Blackpool-Queens Park. They also applied for an hourly Queens Park-Euston path which presumably was in the hope the whole application wouldn't be rejected just on the grounds of Euston works.
     
  14. Tony2215

    Tony2215 Member

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    What route will these open access trains be taking into London?
     
  15. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Given they are saying they'll use Pendolinos there's not a lot of choice of routes, only a choice of calling patterns.
     
  16. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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  17. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    I should think this will force DfT to table what it wants from the next ICWC franchise on the Fast lines from 2017.
    Otherwise, NR/ORR won't be able to review the overall demand for paths.
     
  18. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Considering the only logical off peak path they can go for out of Euston is xx.33 then it is no different to any other bid they have made I suspect.
     
  19. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    This statement in the TAA seems to answer the original poster's main question:

    They must be confident that Blackpool alone is possible?
     
  20. glbotu

    glbotu Member

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    What happened to a previously accepted application to Queen's Park, but without approval through to Euston. There was talk of a Camden Road terminus or something? Not that this would be practicable, just wondering what happened.
     
  21. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Previous application was a 2 hourly Euston/Queen's Park - Blackpool service interworked with a 2 hourly Euston/Queen's Park - Leeds via Warrington service.

    Network Rail accepted it, ORR rejected it. There was quite a bit of objection that Warrington-Leeds wouldn't work alongside North TPE enhancements and as it was only 2 hourly it couldn't replace a proposed North TPE service altogether and still allow a consistent timetable. ORR also accepted Virgin's view that it was take too much existing revenue opposed to generating new revenue - but it only just failed that in ORR's view.
     
  22. Mark62

    Mark62 Member

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    I do believe that not too many years ago Blackpool had a regular service to London. They also had full length trains in the summer to Sheffield, Glasgow, Edinburgh, newcastle etc etc. one through five coach DMU train to London is hardly an improvement on what ran before privatisation
     
  23. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The most recent Blackpool-London services were the North Western Trains ones operated by 158s which Virgin managed to get rid of by increasing their competition protection.
     
  24. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Was that Virgin or was it the moderation of competition clauses that were put in? different things.....
     
  25. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Established Member

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    The GW Holdings business case for NWT's London services was always pants, and the trains were duly withdrawn when First took over FNW.
    The idea of a 2-car class 158 90mph service on the southern WCML was ludicrous.
    Some joint deal with Virgin was struck for North Wales services, but for some reason not for Blackpool.
    Virgin didn't want the costs of loco haulage off the wires for Blackpool/Shrewsbury, but they did briefly run an off-peak HST to Blackpool until about 2001.
    They interworked with the Holyhead services, and then were diverted to Manchester until the Pendolinos came in.
     
  26. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    At that time the loco-hauled Virgin services were limited to 110mph and there were plenty of 321s operating on the southern WCML at no more than 100mph with a lot less services overall, so a 90mph 158 didn't seem that ludicrous.
     
  27. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Last edited: 24 Jun 2015
  28. backontrack

    backontrack Established Member

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    Surely it would make more sense to use bi-mode units, DMUs or locos and run into Blackpool South? There's more demand in Lytham, St Annes, Ansdell etc. that is untapped. This would also connect with Blackpool Pleasure Beach and Blackpool Airport (the latter at Squires Gate).
     
  29. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    may I ask if this is a serious suggestion?
     
  30. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Well, the South Fylde branch is fully single-track so good luck getting it to fit (unless you messed about with the local service as and when, again good luck in this age of clockface timetabling and the (rightful) noise Northern would make). Also, going to North give you flexibility (double track and six platforms), a service to Poulton, and makes it more attractive to the sizeable population along the North Fylde Coast, at the likes of Thornton-Cleveleys and Fleetwood.

    Also, how many people from London or wherever are going to do to the likes of Blackpool Airport, St Annes or Ansdell? Pleasure Beach I can see there'd be some call for, however I doubt enough to justify the meddling necessary to accommodate the London service, and South station demand is probably just as easily covered by North.

    A better development for the South Fylde line would be the reinstatement of the loop at Lytham (I think it was) and a proper half hourly service ex-Preston. Alas I believe the local CRP didn't object to the flogging of railway land necesary to reinstate the loop a few years ago. Genius.
     
    Last edited: 24 Jun 2015

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