Open Access TOC's

[Hincappie]

I've read a lot of very negative posts on here lately on job security at TOC's that operate under the open access model.

As someone looking to hopefully get into the industry as a driver, would anyone suggest any positives about open access operators or are they simply to be avoided at all costs? One person says any driving job is a fantastic opportunity that should be grasped with both hands and the next says any open access operator will basically treat you like trash to be cast away at any moment.

This is obviously not an easy industry to break into. Job vacancies seem to be inundated with thousands of applicants and then it takes a lot of hard work to be successful in getting through the process and being offered a job. Having said that, from what I've read on here, a lot of people seem to think that taking a job with an open access operator is as good as throwing your life down the pan and you could be unceremoniously thrown out on a 5 minute's notice redundancy package as soon as a downturn in customers happens.

I know forums like this are all pretty much based on opinions and experiences that wildly differ from person to person but does anyone have any advice based on level headed, genuine experience and knowledge of the industry as I'm in two minds as to whether I want to get into this given that I could potentially be leaving a good job to pursue it.

 

[Carpy19]

Can I ask what you mean by an 'open access operator'?

P.s. I applied for a trainee train driver position back at the beginning of March so I am in the same boat with your thinking; leaving a well secured job for something that potentially isn't.

I will be keeping a close eye on this thread. Thanks for bringing it up

 

[lammergeier]

I would say that you're overthinking it a bit and conflating a couple of scenarios. If you're wanting to break into the industry and have an opportunity to go OA then grasp it with both hands. If you're already in the industry as a qualified driver then exercise more caution. There usually aren't many vacancies for external trainees at OA's as they usually fill with qualified staff. However, with qualified probably less likely to move now, if they are to continue in business then they may well need to recruit and train more.

Yes, OA might be more risky but by the time you get a job, train and qualify you'll have a better idea about the long term viability of the business.

Ironically, and this is just idle speculation, it may be that should pay cuts be forced by government in the new arrangements from September at franchised TOCs, which is a real possibility, OA staff may be more insulated as they can pay what they like.

 

[Hincappie]

Can I ask what you mean by an 'open access operator'?

P.s. I applied for a trainee train driver position back at the beginning of March so I am in the same boat with your thinking; leaving a well secured job for something that potentially isn't.

I will be keeping a close eye on this thread. Thanks for bringing it up

Hi Carpy,

I'd suggest you Google it, easier than me trying to explain!

In a nutshell its basically a TOC that operates outside of government franchise contracts so they take on the commercial risk and reward element and don't receive any government subsidy. They're basically on their own which has its good and bad points.

Hull Trains is an open access operator as an example.

If you're looking to get into the industry may be worth doing some homework to get your head around it. Good luck in getting into the drivers seat.

 

[rail-god]

In a nutshell its basically a TOC that operates outside of government franchise contracts so they take on the commercial risk and reward element and don't receive any government subsidy. They're basically on their own which has its good and bad points.

So basically the same as rail Freight companies than?

 

[Hincappie]

I would say that you're overthinking it a bit and conflating a couple of scenarios. If you're wanting to break into the industry and have an opportunity to go OA then grasp it with both hands. If you're already in the industry as a qualified driver then exercise more caution. There usually aren't many vacancies for external trainees at OA's as they usually fill with qualified staff. However, with qualified probably less likely to move now, if they are to continue in business then they may well need to recruit and train more.

Yes, OA might be more risky but by the time you get a job, train and qualify you'll have a better idea about the long term viability of the business.

Ironically, and this is just idle speculation, it may be that should pay cuts be forced by government in the new arrangements from September at franchised TOCs, which is a real possibility, OA staff may be more insulated as they can pay what they like.

Thanks Lammergeier. I think you're probably right. Should I be successful I'd be taking the position I would think but reading some horror stories on here makes you think twice at times! I have a mortgage to pay like most people and really want to get into this industry and I suppose any job is a gamble these days, there are no guarantees anywhere.

 

[Hincappie]

So basically the same as rail Freight companies than?

Have to admit I haven't looked at freight operators so I'm not sure how they operate but it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case.

 

[Trogladyte]

I am a trainee driver at an OA. I grasped the opportunity with both hands to phrase one of the posts above and now currently furloughed and worried about the future.

 

[ainsworth74]

An open access operator is one that doesn't receive Government backing and is outside of the Government's contracting process. If they fail then they go bust and their staff get made redundant as in any other private business. The two main ones are Grand Central (Kings Cross - Bradford/Sunderland and eventually Euston - Blackpool) and Hull Trains (Kings Cross - Hull). We've seen this previously when an open access operator running between Marylebone and Wrexham went bust. The staff were all, sadly, made redundant. This is unlike a franchise operator where the Government has a duty to operate the service even the private operator, for whatever reason cannot (see what happened to National Express East Coast and Virgin Trains East Coast, both failed but the Government stepped in and no jobs, at least outside of director level, were lost).

If you join an OAO then it is more risky than being part of a franchised TOC but then again you'll be gaining fairly specialised skills (certainly as a driver) which means it will be that bit easier to get a start with another TOC. The drivers of the failed OAO I believe all found work fairly quickly with other operators (as did the majority of the rest of the staff I believe).

Freight are similar to OAOs in that they are driven by the market. If they get work then more jobs follow, if they lose work then jobs can be lost as well. DB Cargo made a number of drivers redundant a few years ago when the bottom fell out of the coal market for instance. I suspect that if a freight operator when completely bust the Government might get involved (on the basis of it being an important part of the UKs logistics network) but they would be not be required to do so, so you shouldn't expect a bailout and I suspect the Government's approach would be to try and get one of the other players in the market to take over the failed outfit which would probably still mean job losses when the two operations were consolidated.

Hopefully that's helpful

 

[Hincappie]

I am a trainee driver at an OA. I grasped the opportunity with both hands to phrase one of the posts above and now currently furloughed and worried about the future.

I sympathise with you mate. I think furloughing has been a shock to most industries. The Covid19 issues couldn't have been predicted by anyone but it is another worry as to how things will pan out if this happens again. Having said that I suspect its an issue for all TOC's as well as just OA operators though there may well be more uncertainty with OA just by the very nature of the business model.

Good luck, keep me posted on how things pan out.

 

[Hincappie]

An open access operator is one that doesn't receive Government backing and is outside of the Government's contracting process. If they fail then they go bust and their staff get made redundant as in any other private business. The two main ones are Grand Central (Kings Cross - Bradford/Sunderland and eventually Euston - Blackpool) and Hull Trains (Kings Cross - Hull). We've seen this previously when an open access operator running between Marylebone and Wrexham went bust. The staff were all, sadly, made redundant. This is unlike a franchise operator where the Government has a duty to operate the service even the private operator, for whatever reason cannot (see what happened to National Express East Coast and Virgin Trains East Coast, both failed but the Government stepped in and no jobs, at least outside of director level, were lost).

If you join an OAO then it is more risky than being part of a franchised TOC but then again you'll be gaining fairly specialised skills (certainly as a driver) which means it will be that bit easier to get a start with another TOC. The drivers of the failed OAO I believe all found work fairly quickly with other operators (as did the majority of the rest of the staff I believe).

Freight are similar to OAOs in that they are driven by the market. If they get work then more jobs follow, if they lose work then jobs can be lost as well. DB Cargo made a number of drivers redundant a few years ago when the bottom fell out of the coal market for instance. I suspect that if a freight operator when completely bust the Government might get involved (on the basis of it being an important part of the UKs logistics network) but they would be not be required to do so, so you shouldn't expect a bailout and I suspect the Government's approach would be to try and get one of the other players in the market to take over the failed outfit which would probably still mean job losses when the two operations were consolidated.

Hopefully that's helpful

That is very helpful, thank you.

 

[lammergeier]

I am a trainee driver at an OA. I grasped the opportunity with both hands to phrase one of the posts above and now currently furloughed and worried about the future.

It's terrible timing and I sympathise with you, but there are trainees at franchises operators who I understand are furloughed as well. Most industries haven't escaped this disaster and don't be under the illusion that drivers at franchised operators are immune from this, because we're not and things are going to become difficult. Look at the airlines as well, some of the Easyjet trainee threads on Pprune are genuinely shocking. Only a few industries and jobs are untouched by this, and ours isn't one of them.

But the point I made remains. If you're outside the industry and want to break in as a trainee driver then you shouldn't pass up the opportunity of training at an OA operator because of this situation. Unless we have another unforeseen catastrophe then the OA situation will have resolved itself well before anyone posting here qualifies or even begins training. GC have started up again and hopefully HT will follow soon. Once you're back at it and qualified you won't regret your decision.

 

[dctraindriver]

I would say that you're overthinking it a bit and conflating a couple of scenarios. If you're wanting to break into the industry and have an opportunity to go OA then grasp it with both hands. If you're already in the industry as a qualified driver then exercise more caution. There usually aren't many vacancies for external trainees at OA's as they usually fill with qualified staff. However, with qualified probably less likely to move now, if they are to continue in business then they may well need to recruit and train more.

Yes, OA might be more risky but by the time you get a job, train and qualify you'll have a better idea about the long term viability of the business.

Ironically, and this is just idle speculation, it may be that should pay cuts be forced by government in the new arrangements from September at franchised TOCs, which is a real possibility, OA staff may be more insulated as they can pay what they like.

Your final paragraph is interesting.......

 

[lammergeier]

Your final paragraph is interesting.......

I hope it's wrong but the government is not going to pay to run empty trains forever. When the EMAs expire they will want cost savings. I imagine OBS will be gone, we'll see an expansion of DOO and remaining staff will see either pay freezes or cuts, or at least an attempt at finally implementing "that" part of Mcnulty.

 

[Hincappie]

It's terrible timing and I sympathise with you, but there are trainees at franchises operators who I understand are furloughed as well. Most industries haven't escaped this disaster and don't be under the illusion that drivers at franchised operators are immune from this, because we're not and things are going to become difficult. Look at the airlines as well, some of the Easyjet trainee threads on Pprune are genuinely shocking. Only a few industries and jobs are untouched by this, and ours isn't one of them.

But the point I made remains. If you're outside the industry and want to break in as a trainee driver then you shouldn't pass up the opportunity of training at an OA operator because of this situation. Unless we have another unforeseen catastrophe then the OA situation will have resolved itself well before anyone posting here qualifies or even begins training. GC have started up again and hopefully HT will follow soon. Once you're back at it and qualified you won't regret your decision.

This is very encouraging advice, thank you.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think we're in danger of getting rather off-topic if we proceed down an avenue around wider issues potentialy effecting the industry. Let's stick to risks/considerations when it comes to Open Access Operators please

 

[172345]

I hear that people are worried about FOCs and OAO on here all the time. I'd like to point out a couple of point's and this is by no means a dig at the original OP just a general rant.

People who claim they have always wanted to be a driver but then state they are worried about job security makes me question how much they actually want to be a driver. We have people who driving is in their blood and others who chase the dream for money both of which are perfectly fine. But my point is people who are worried about job security tend not to be the same people who genuinely want to be drivers for the love of the job rather than the love of the pay slip.

Also, should the worst happen and you do get made redundant (highly unlikely to happen) you'll find work at another company with ease providing your safety of the line record is clear. How many drivers have been made redundant and have failed to find work again? The number must be extremely low!

The point I'm trying to make is if you genuinely want the job then go get it at any company you can. Competition is fierce for driver jobs. You may find that you can't pick the company you want...

 

[craigybagel]

I work with several former Wrexham and Shopshire staff. There are two things they all seem to have in common: they all absolutely loved working there , and still talk often about how great it was - but also they all ended up redundant. And whilst my own TOC does have several depots close to Wrexham where W&S were based, there weren't jobs for all of them straight away and a lot of them had to come to us via other TOCs (and FOCs for some of the drivers). Several ended up with Chiltern in Birmingham and that's not a great commute!

Personally, as long as I've got a mortgage to pay I'd never consider leaving my TOC for open access, but a lot of those who do seem to enjoy it.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Personally, as long as I've got a mortgage to pay I'd never consider leaving my TOC for open access, but a lot of those who do seem to enjoy it.

Slightly longer term thinking, I could never walk away from the RPS!