Open Return Ticket Refused? Ordered to pay again.

[Llanigraham]

If the customer asked what all of the restrictions were on their tickets, and they were not then subsequntly not told about the break of journey restriction on a Lancaster to London Terminals Off Peak ticket, then that would probably not stand as a term in their contract, you are absoultely right on that point. It is made clear that any break of journey restriction will be advised when the ticket is purchased.

And how is a station ticket machine supposed to do that?
Or any web purchased ticket?
Or any electronic/mobile device ticket?

 

[Steveoh]

The wording on break of journey is

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf


There is no such thing as peak or off peak just restriction codes. Whether you agree or disagree to the 8A restriction or any other National Rail Conditions have been met by having the restriction code displayed.

I don't seem to be able to copy your image but that states that break of journey is generally permitted on off peak tickets with some exceptions on OUTWARD journeys. It does not mention return.

 

[JB_B]

The wording on break of journey is

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf


There is no such thing as peak or off peak just restriction codes. Whether you agree or disagree to the 8A restriction or any other National Rail Conditions have been met by having the restriction code displayed.

National rail's take on 8A ...

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_8A.pdf

Outward Travel
Valid by any train.
Break of journey is not permitted except to
change trains at an intermediate station or to
access station facilities

Return Travel
Valid by any train.

... makes it clear (to me at least) that the BoJ restriction is applicable outbound only.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And how is a station ticket machine supposed to do that?
Or any web purchased ticket?
Or any electronic/mobile device ticket?

The fact that it may be difficult does not mean that the industry should consider it the passenger's problem! It is a problem entirely the making of the industry's, and so they can damn well find a way to fix it.

 

[Llanigraham]

The fact that it may be difficult does not mean that the industry should consider it the passenger's problem! It is a problem entirely the making of the industry's, and so they can damn well find a way to fix it.

I shall ignore the vitriolic last part of that response, and suggest you look at many other industries and sales outlets.

When you book an air ticket do you get sight of the relevant terms and conditions? Not that I am aware of, and certainly NOT unless you are willing to find your way through many pages of small print from several different sources.
When you buy a bus ticket? Not at all!
When you buy a ticket on the tube or the DLR?
Cross channel ferry?
The Festiniog Railway?
I could continue on the transport side of things, but you could also look at many other retail examples and find exactly the same response. You don't unless you request it, exactly the same as the railway.

Do you see a pattern here?
I suggest that attitude to railway legislation is clouding your judgement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And how is a station ticket machine supposed to do that?

By showing it on the screen. Like some of them actually do.

 

[Llanigraham]

By showing it on the screen.

See my reply to FTLO above!

 

[Bletchleyite]

National rail's take on 8A ...

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_8A.pdf

... makes it clear (to me at least) that the BoJ restriction is applicable outbound only.

That was what I thought originally, but then instead of fixing 8A they fixed the NRE page that said BoJ was always allowed on the outward.

FWIW, brfares.com also looks like that PDF.

 

[rs101]

And how is a station ticket machine supposed to do that?
Or any web purchased ticket?
Or any electronic/mobile device ticket?

The ticket machines used by Greater Anglia do a very good job of that.

I regularly purchase off-peak Travelcards - they aren't valid out of Liverpool Street between 16:30 and 19:00 on weekdays. The TVM puts up an on-screen message to that effect with a choice of continue or cancel.

So it's very, very clear to the purchaser what the restrictions are.

 

[yorkie]

I am not convinced that the attempt by some train companies to introduce BOJ restrictions on the return portion is legal or approved by RDG.

As for the recording, I agree with @furlong regarding questions that can be asked of the employer of the Guard.

And Guards that say "I have been doing this job for xx years" have proceeded to give out incorrect information in the two or three occasions I've heard that phrase be used. It immediately sets alarm bells ringing.

If they had been doing it for that long and aware of the rules for the past 20 years or so, they would know that break of journey absolutely has been historically permitted!

You aren't. Yet you try to defend this indefensible position (on behalf of your employer?)

He is listed as a Director so he doesn't need to defend his position to his employer. It would put me off using that retailer though; as a customer I would want to buy from a retailer that I know is going to stand up for my rights. I feel that is extremely important.

 

[mmh]

The Newtown ticket office should be a great example of how to provide small stations with a full service by third parties. If it worked well, I'd be all in favour of it happening in lots of places across the country.

Unfortunately, currently it appears to be run by someone who dislikes everything about railways and has a permanent bee in his bonnet about passengers, the operating companies, and the Welsh government. It doesn't seem an ideal career or location for him.

I'd love to support their business, but I'm afraid I couldn't bring myself to do so, which is an enormous shame.

 

[Wolfie]

Quite weird, especially if you stayed level like you said. Unfortunately, some guards do set out on a power trip whenever a passenger is in the wrong, even the slightest bit of doubt...

If staff don't like being recorded on phones without permission it is no more acceptable for them to do so (body cams with appropriate notices and company-provided legally compliant data storage are quite different). Indeed l would be asking TfW under what legislation the Conductor did this, what happened to the data and if the Information Commission is aware/content with the practice. If l wanted to cause the Conductor maximum grief (and l would) l would file a DPA SAR.

 

[Wolfie]

The wording on break of journey is

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf


There is no such thing as peak or off peak just restriction codes. Whether you agree or disagree to the 8A restriction or any other National Rail Conditions have been met by having the restriction code displayed.

Given general consumer legislation and the statements quoted elsewhere about open returns and break of journey l wish TfW good luck in defending any legal action seeking refund of the fare

 

[Wolfie]

And how is a station ticket machine supposed to do that?
Or any web purchased ticket?
Or any electronic/mobile device ticket?

To be blunt, given what NRCOT (not to mention general consumer legislation) says that really is not the consumer's problem. If the rail industry uses technology that cannot comply with it's own terms and conditions then it better expect to lose and lose regularly in Court.

 

[Wolfie]

The fact that it may be difficult does not mean that the industry should consider it the passenger's problem! It is a problem entirely the making of the industry's, and so they can damn well find a way to fix it.

Absolutely right - and if the TOCs have to expect County Court action on every occasion when their staff act as this Conductor did their likely legal bills alone will prompt action....

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Newtown ticket office should be a great example of how to provide small stations with a full service by third parties. If it worked well, I'd be all in favour of it happening in lots of places across the country.

Unfortunately, currently it appears to be run by someone who dislikes everything about railways and has a permanent bee in his bonnet about passengers, the operating companies, and the Welsh government. It doesn't seem an ideal career or location for him.

I'd love to support their business, but I'm afraid I couldn't bring myself to do so, which is an enormous shame.

He is listed as a Director so he doesn't need to defend his position to his employer. It would put me off using that retailer though; as a customer I would want to buy from a retailer that I know is going to stand up for my rights. I feel that is extremely important.

Your both more than welcome to spend a day with me (or a few hours) to see how I operate and discuss various issues you've raised. PM me if you want to arrange a convenient date.

 

[WelshBluebird]

And how is a station ticket machine supposed to do that?
Or any web purchased ticket?
Or any electronic/mobile device ticket?

Not the customers problem.
The rail industry itself introduced rules which state that the restrictions must be advised to the passenger on purchase for those restrictions to be valid.
If the rail industry itself has then introduced methods of sale that do not do that, then that is the industries own problem.

Of course, it should be easy to solve.

1. Make all restriction codes available in an easy to read by a human format.
2. On purchasing a ticket, display the human readable restriction on a separate page all to itself, and ask the user to accept those restrictions before they can pay. Sure you'll get some idiots who won't read it, but if the industry actually attempts to provide the information like this to passengers, then there is no defence for the passenger when they are idiots and don't pay attention.

But again, because the industry itself has managed to make such a complicated mess of tickets, especially when it comes to restriction codes and BoJ (let alone a few other things), the above is actually pretty difficult!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is nothing complex about BoJ restrictions. The possibilities are:-
- Allowed on both legs
- Not allowed on both legs
- Not allowed on outward but allowed on return

This is hardly challenging to represent electronically and show online or on a TVM or even on the ticket itself.

 

[Clip]

Not the customers problem.
The rail industry itself introduced rules which state that the restrictions must be advised to the passenger on purchase for those restrictions to be valid.

They have to make available the restrictions not advise as you claim.

 

[Clip]

This is hardly challenging to represent electronically and show online or on a TVM or even on the ticket itself.

Easy to do all three of them and some TVMs do as well as the online bit but remember the many threads we have had about lots of text on ticket before? Thats why they show the restriction code and the web address on where to find it nre.co.uk/ then the restriction

 

[_toommm_]

There is nothing complex about BoJ restrictions. The possibilities are:-
- Allowed on both legs
- Not allowed on both legs
- Not allowed on outward but allowed on return

This is hardly challenging to represent electronically and show online or on a TVM or even on the ticket itself.

But the way it is presented to customers is confusing - when popular sites like Thetrainline tell customers it's allowed on the return as a blanket rule, why would customers not believe it?

 

[yorkie]

But the way it is presented to customers is confusing - when popular sites like Thetrainline tell customers it's allowed on the return as a blanket rule, why would customers not believe it?

The rule has traditionally been a blanket rule for the return portion, and I find it very concerning that some train companies appear to be either accidentally or deliberately causing complexity by restricting these rights.

I'd also argue that the 'Saver' product, which is a regulated product, has key attributes protected in fares regulation and I believe that break of journey rights should be considered a protected attribute. Unfortunately no-one seems to know the exact wording of fares regulation in this respect, but I think it is legally dubious for train companies to attempt to introduce BOJ restrictions on return portions.

I do not believe any member of staff who attempts to claim BOJ is not permitted on a return portion is acting correctly.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I shall ignore the vitriolic last part of that response, and suggest you look at many other industries and sales outlets.

When you book an air ticket do you get sight of the relevant terms and conditions? Not that I am aware of, and certainly NOT unless you are willing to find your way through many pages of small print from several different sources.
When you buy a bus ticket? Not at all!
When you buy a ticket on the tube or the DLR?
Cross channel ferry?
The Festiniog Railway?
I could continue on the transport side of things, but you could also look at many other retail examples and find exactly the same response. You don't unless you request it, exactly the same as the railway.

Do you see a pattern here?
I suggest that attitude to railway legislation is clouding your judgement.

It is one thing not being shown the conditions, or even being advised of their existence, at all. That is what happens in a great deal of cases on the railway. As for bus tickets and the like, if you are not advised of the conditions applicable to the ticket before paying (or at least a notice is displayed which says something like "travel is subject to the company's conditions, please ask for details", then clearly the only terms of the contract can be those that have been explicitly stated - e.g. the price, the journey to be made - as well as those which can reasonably be implied.

And in the case of most online bookings you will indeed be informed of the full conditions applying to your ticket. The last time I booked a flight I was explicitly directed to the fare conditions in the list of things you had to tick to agree to, and I had to tick another box saying that I understood that I had to use the flights in the order booked (i.e. effectively no BoJ, over the booking as a whole), and that if I didn't, my booking was liable to be cancelled or I could be asked to pay the excess to the cheapest fare category valid for the order I used the flights in.

But all of that is irrelevant to the rail industry: whether or not other industry are in the wrong doesn't matter. The rail industry needs to make sure it is telling people of the conditions which it would like to attach to tickets; if it does not, it must accept that it loses the right to enforce those conditions.

 

[_toommm_]

The rule has traditionally been a blanket rule for the return portion, and I find it very concerning that some train companies appear to be either accidentally or deliberately causing complexity by restricting these rights.

I'd also argue that the 'Saver' product, which is a regulated product, has key attributes protected in fares regulation and I believe that break of journey rights should be considered a protected attribute. Unfortunately no-one seems to know the exact wording of fares regulation in this respect, but I think it is legally dubious for train companies to attempt to introduce BOJ restrictions on return portions.
,
I do not believe any member of staff who attempts to claim BOJ is not permitted on a return portion is acting correctly.

Even the term 'Open Return' suggests it to be the least restricted of all the returns i.e. open-ended. To be honest, I'm surprised they'd restrict it, especially with the push on fares simplification. If anything, we need more blanket rules...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even the term 'Open Return' suggests it to be the least restricted of all the returns i.e. open-ended. To be honest, I'm surprised they'd restrict it, especially with the push on fares simplification. If anything, we need more blanket rules...

"Open Return" was the OP's vernacular. The ticket is an Off-Peak Return, even if it is a bit of an illogical one being as how it is (other than BoJ) not restricted.

 

[yorkie]

Even the term 'Open Return' suggests it to be the least restricted of all the returns i.e. open-ended. To be honest, I'm surprised they'd restrict it, especially with the push on fares simplification. If anything, we need more blanket rules...

The term "open return" is best avoided now.

This used to be the name of a ticket type (First Open Return and Standard Open Return) which existed until 2008, indeed this product still exists today, but is called an Anytime Return. The codes FOR and SOR remain in use. This ticket type used to indicate that there were no break of journey or time restrictions

On Track Retail booking sites use the term "open return" to mean "any ticket that is valid to return within one month" and won't return any results if the only return fares available are day returns. Tickets that prohibit break of journey or have time restrictions are included in these results.

Trainline booking sites use the term "open return" to mean "any ticket that is valid to return on more than one train", including returns that are only valid to return the same day, and returns that have hefty restrictions, which really casts doubts on whether the term "open" is appropriate in this context.

So, with no common definition of the term "open", it has effectively become a meaningless term, and when anyone uses that, you have to use context to attempt to figure out which of the above meanings they have in mind, or perhaps they have their own, completely different meaning in mind, who knows...!

 

[Clip]

It is one thing not being shown the conditions, or even being advised of their existence, at all. That is what happens in a great deal of cases on the railway.

Have a look on the back of a ticket when you next have one in your hand and tell me what it says - then if the ticket has restrictions then it will say what it is and where to find it.

 

[Clip]

The term "open return" is best avoided now.

This used to be the name of a ticket type (First Open Return and Standard Open Return) which existed until 2008, indeed this product still exists today, but is called an Anytime Return. The codes FOR and SOR remain in use. This ticket type used to indicate that there were no break of journey or time restrictions

On Track Retail booking sites use the term "open return" to mean "any ticket that is valid to return within one month" and won't return any results if the only return fares available are day returns. Tickets that prohibit break of journey or have time restrictions are included in these results.

Trainline booking sites use the term "open return" to mean "any ticket that is valid to return on more than one train", including returns that are only valid to return the same day, and returns that have hefty restrictions, which really casts doubts on whether the term "open" is appropriate in this context.

So, with no common definition of the term "open", it has effectively become a meaningless term, and when anyone uses that, you have to use context to attempt to figure out which of the above meanings they have in mind, or perhaps they have their own, completely different meaning in mind, who knows...!

Very much so - i was looking on northern(this websites favourite villains ) to address another point about information beign provided and for the journey I selected knowing it was a TPE journey out popped a little balloon stating just that and it was also only valid on TPE service at that time. I also just found out that they have a whole page informing you about different ticket types https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets so at least the information is there and they are providing it contrary to other members' claims.

 

[Llanigraham]

But all of that is irrelevant to the rail industry: whether or not other industry are in the wrong doesn't matter. The rail industry needs to make sure it is telling people of the conditions which it would like to attach to tickets; if it does not, it must accept that it loses the right to enforce those conditions.

So if I read that correctly you are now proposing that the railway is made a "special case" and has different rules to all other businesses?
Good luck with getting legislation made to cover that!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Have a look on the back of a ticket when you next have one in your hand and tell me what it says - then if the ticket has restrictions then it will say what it is and where to find it.

And when precisely is this ticket spat out? Oh, after paying, that's right!

You can't retrospectively change the terms of a contract, or attempt to enforce terms that the other party wasn't given the opportunity to acquaint themselves with. This is basic contract law (and even common sense), but the railway seems to think it is magically exempt from complying with both. Newsflash: it isn't, and the Courts and the public (respectively) don't take kindly to an ignorance of what is right.