Options to electrify Ellesmere Port to Helsby?

[Elecman]

I would think the conductor and catenary wires will have to be beefed up to handle the much larger currents at 750v dc. Remember we’re powering heavy mainline trains not trams

 

[option]

If the "your side of the M6" jibe is aimed at me, I am in fact supportive of Merseyrail extensions, despite living in Greater Manchester. Not only Ellesmere Port - Helsby, but also Kirkby - Skelmersdale/Wigan and maybe Bidston - Neston and Ormskirk - Burscough. But third rail extensions are not going to happen, which is why upthread I suggested 750V DC OLE as a lower cost solution than isolated "islands" of 25kV AC.

Politics is the "art of the possible", not of banging your head against a brick wall.

Ellesmere Port - Helsby

8km of electrification​

Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge

need to re-instate the curves north & south of the Southport line
electrify ~5.5km of line into Burscough Bridge station
Northern service from/to Preston can then run to Southport
​

Are they small/cheap enough projects that they could be locally funded?
No rolling stock changes, & potentially an increase in revenue for Merseyrail & Northern.


Bidston-Neston;
wouldn't you just transfer the entire service to Wrexham over to Merseyrail, who then might extend it up to New Brighton. Would still be operated by DMU though.


Kirkby & onto Wigan
would be 20km of electrification, with there being nothing much of anything between Kirkby & Wigan. Without a whole new route, it's very difficult to serve Skelmersdale.
More likely that the existing Northern services get extended down the line to Moorfields, using a battery even for the last little bit in/out of the station.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would it be so massively different to Metrolink that all the infrastructure would need to be massively different?
Or could you just use the same physical infrastructure as for 25kV & power it up at 750vDC?

According to Wikipedia, a Metrolink M5000 tram has a power draw of 480kW, i.e. 960kW for a double set, whereas a Merseyrail Class 777 unit will draw 2800kW, nearly three times more. But Metrolink trams run virtually nose to tail through the core of the network, while trains would be widely spaced on a Merseyrail extension, so I doubt that the total current in an OLE section would be greater. The contact wire would need to be a heavier gauge than for 25kV, as @Elecman said. Metrolink uses double contact wires and/or parallel feeders to reduce volts drop.

1500V or 3000V DC, as used on some mainline railways in other countries, would reduce the current in the OLE, but would need voltage converters in the trains for compatibility with 750V third rail.

 

[Greybeard33]

Ellesmere Port - Helsby

8km of electrification​

Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge

need to re-instate the curves north & south of the Southport line
electrify ~5.5km of line into Burscough Bridge station
Northern service from/to Preston can then run to Southport
​

Are they small/cheap enough projects that they could be locally funded?
No rolling stock changes, & potentially an increase in revenue for Merseyrail & Northern.


Bidston-Neston;
wouldn't you just transfer the entire service to Wrexham over to Merseyrail, who then might extend it up to New Brighton. Would still be operated by DMU though.


Kirkby & onto Wigan
would be 20km of electrification, with there being nothing much of anything between Kirkby & Wigan. Without a whole new route, it's very difficult to serve Skelmersdale.
More likely that the existing Northern services get extended down the line to Moorfields, using a battery even for the last little bit in/out of the station.

Other Merseyrail extensions are really OT for this thread and have been discussed previously in other threads. I suggest you start a new thread for these questions.

 

[krus_aragon]

Other Merseyrail extensions are really OT for this thread and have been discussed previously in other threads. I suggest you start a new thread for these questions.

Or use an existing thread, such as Southport to Wigan Electrification or Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.

 

[apk55]

The new class 777 units are designed to be converted to 25KV operation, with a lowered roof section for a pantograph and space for a transformer rectifier. So you might as well use 25KV.

 

[Greybeard33]

The new class 777 units are designed to be converted to 25KV operation, with a lowered roof section for a pantograph and space for a transformer rectifier. So you might as well use 25KV.

Except that it would be prohibitively expensive to provide a dedicated 25kV grid feed just for a short section like Ellesmere Port to Helsby. So you would have to electrify all the way to Halton to pick up a feed from the WCML - roughly double the distance and cost - or run a long "extension lead" from Halton to Helsby - also costly.

 

[option]

Except that it would be prohibitively expensive to provide a dedicated 25kV grid feed just for a short section like Ellesmere Port to Helsby. So you would have to electrify all the way to Halton to pick up a feed from the WCML - roughly double the distance and cost - or run a long "extension lead" from Halton to Helsby - also costly.

Which would suggest that the best option for this extension is 750vDC

 

[8H]

Connectivity between partly isolated Ellesmere Port and the much better served Helsby where the long established Manchester services and extended/new destinations Leeds and Liverpool operate as others have already said transforms possibilities for EP. They are also correct that a circular service Liverpool Hooton EP Frodsham Runcorn Liverpool is the ideal long term solution. Short term what is wrong with a Vivarail shuttle between EP and Helsby doing the connecting?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Short term what is wrong with a Vivarail shuttle between EP and Helsby doing the connecting?

Because it's operationally awkward and costly?

 

[8H]

So doing b****r all is the better option in the short and middle term then?

 

[option]

If Merseyrail extend to Helsby, would they have any increase in operational costs?
The extra distance could almost be done in the time stock currently sits at ELP, so no need for any extra services or staff.
Track access charges & electric, but aren't EMUs cheaper than DMUs for the access charge (?)

The existing Northern service will be subsidised, though there aren't many services a day.
I wonder if DfT would be willing to part fund the infrastructure so they could then ditch the subsidy?

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

So doing b****r all is the better option in the short and middle term then?

No, this is Britain so the options are set up a consultation, a feasibility study or an inquiry, then spend years pondering before more of the same.

 

[frodshamfella]

If Merseyrail extend to Helsby, would they have any increase in operational costs?
The extra distance could almost be done in the time stock currently sits at ELP, so no need for any extra services or staff.
Track access charges & electric, but aren't EMUs cheaper than DMUs for the access charge (?)

The existing Northern service will be subsidised, though there aren't many services a day.
I wonder if DfT would be willing to part fund the infrastructure so they could then ditch the subsidy?

I think also their new trains, will accelerate faster, so perhaps that might mean a more comfortable turn around time wise at Formby

 

[frodshamfella]

No, this is Britain so the options are set up a consultation, a feasibility study or an inquiry, then spend years pondering before more of the same.

lol aka Heathrow

 

[Elecman]

I think also their new trains, will accelerate faster, so perhaps that might mean a more comfortable turn around time wise at Formby

What turns around at Formby?

 

[Skie]

Except that it would be prohibitively expensive to provide a dedicated 25kV grid feed just for a short section like Ellesmere Port to Helsby. So you would have to electrify all the way to Halton to pick up a feed from the WCML - roughly double the distance and cost - or run a long "extension lead" from Halton to Helsby - also costly.

The line passes right through an industrial area, the high voltage grid connection is already there which would reduce some of the costs.

 

[frodshamfella]

What turns around at Formby?

oops I meant Helsby !!!!

 

[Glenn1969]

Surely if this line was deemed worthy of more than a twice a day service it would have one already? Is there call for an hourly service at Ince and Elton and Stanlow and Thornton stations?

 

[option]

Surely if this line was deemed worthy of more than a twice a day service it would have one already? Is there call for an hourly service at Ince and Elton and Stanlow and Thornton stations?

Merseytravel/Merseyrail see it worthwhile to have a half-hourly service at Ellesmere Port.
Helsby sees 4 trains per hour, & another 2 pass.

I suspect the lack of service east of ELP is more due to it being difficult to operate.
With such a poor service, it is likely to be suppressing demand in multiple directions, eg from the area into Liverpool & to Helsby, & from existing Merseyrail stations to Helsby.
There is a new Technology Park, that could be served from a new station at Pool Lane, new housing right by the station at Ellesmere Port, some new housing at Ince.

If the electrification is extended from ELP, then it's really easy to operate. The current trains sit at ELP for 12minutes, you can almost do a return trip to Helsby in that time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the electrification is extended from ELP, then it's really easy to operate. The current trains sit at ELP for 12minutes, you can almost do a return trip to Helsby in that time.

Realistically you'd need another unit, but that needn't have an excessive layover, you could interwork it with the Chester services and so use part of that to improve the resilience of those too.

 

[xotGD]

Battery loco to haul the emu between Ellesmere Port and Helsby. Could recharge at Ellesmere Port between turns.

A bit like a 33/1 and 4TC. Except with batteries.

 

[frodshamfella]

Surely if this line was deemed worthy of more than a twice a day service it would have one already? Is there call for an hourly service at Ince and Elton and Stanlow and Thornton stations?

I think Ince and Elton, yes it is worthy. Your never going to get returns from such a Cinderella service.