Organise a countersignatory now - before you lose your passport

[RuralRambler]

Didn’t it used to be someone who had a professional vocation and would stand to ‘lose’ something should they have done something criminal?

In theory, yes, but now it's not really the case. One of the options as per the list is a "company director", but that costs as little as £15 these days to form a DIY limited company and appoint yourself as a director, so things have moved on. A few decades ago, you had to swear an oath in front of a solicitor or notory to form a limited company or use a formation agent/accountant.

 

[Falcon1200]

This whole countersignatory thing is a ridiculous outdated anachronism, given that we live in 2021, not 1921, in an age of electronic records and instant communication. Does every adult applying for a passport in the UK not have a National Insurance number, and most likely tax records too ? Why on earth should someone only be able to get a passport on the say-so of a bank manager or doctor, etc. Ludicrous !

 

[Ediswan]

This whole countersignatory thing is a ridiculous outdated anachronism, given that we live in 2021, not 1921, in an age of electronic records and instant communication. Does every adult applying for a passport in the UK not have a National Insurance number, and most likely tax records too ? Why on earth should someone only be able to get a passport on the say-so of a bank manager or doctor, etc. Ludicrous !

It is partly to do with certifying what the applicant looks like. Neither NI numbers nor tax records can do that.

 

[Falcon1200]

It is partly to do with certifying what the applicant looks like. Neither NI numbers nor tax records can do that.

Interesting, thanks. I had not thought of that reason, but..... If someone uses a photo on their passport which does not look like them, will that not be discovered the first time they use it ?!! Or is it perhaps to prevent fraudulent issue of passports ?

 

[gg1]

It is partly to do with certifying what the applicant looks like. Neither NI numbers nor tax records can do that.

That doesn't have to be someone who's 'known you for at least 2 years' though, all it needs is someone to check a photo actually looks like you. I fail to see why this couldn't be a service offered by post offices (for a fee obviously) in the same way you can pay for them to certify photocopies of proofs of ID as true and accurate copies of the original.

I'm in my 40s and looking at the list of occupations I genuinely don't think I know anyone unrelated to me who fits the criteria.

 

[johncrossley]

The 2 years thing is stupid. In Ireland you can go to the police station, and for first time applicants have to do that. You don't need to know the police officer for two years. I don't see why we can't do that here. The closest alternative is to go to the police station today and ask several police officers there if they will be your countersignatory in two years time. You can't just ask one because you don't know if they'll be in the job in two years time, or they might have moved to another area.

 

[DelayRepay]

That doesn't have to be someone who's 'known you for at least 2 years' though, all it needs is someone to check a photo actually looks like you. I fail to see why this couldn't be a service offered by post offices (for a fee obviously) in the same way you can pay for them to certify photocopies of proofs of ID as true and accurate copies of the original.

I'm in my 40s and looking at the list of occupations I genuinely don't think I know anyone unrelated to me who fits the criteria.

If I go to the post office with a passport application containing the details of gg1 but a picture of DelayRepay, how would the clerk know that the person in front of them, who would match the photo, was in fact DelayRepay and not gg1? Because if they don't, DelayRepay has a nice new (blue!) passport in the name of gg1.

I agree there has to be a better way but I do see why we rely on a reputable person who knows the applicant.

I'm sure it won't be long before we're just using some kind of biometric data, at which point certifying photos will become irrelevant.

 

[edwin_m]

I can sign as a chartered engineer, but a bit disapointingly nobody has ever asked me. Last time I had to get a signature I asked a colleague who was also a chartered engineer.

 

[Ediswan]

I can sign as a chartered engineer, but a bit disapointingly nobody has ever asked me. Last time I had to get a signature I asked a colleague who was also a chartered engineer.

If I ever need another signature, it probably would be from a 'member, associate or fellow of a professional body'. I did once get a signature from a Lt Col (TA). Not for rank, they were 20 feet away (civilian job) and the first certain match on the list.

 

[MotCO]

Your countersignatory simply needs to be someone who can recognise you and has known you for two years (family excepted)

But 'family' is not clearly defined. Yes, blood relatives are obvious, but what about the unmarried partner of a relative? Married partners are excluded, but I'm not sure about unmarried partners. Or what about the sibling of the unmarried partner of a relative?

 

[johncrossley]

But 'family' is not clearly defined. Yes, blood relatives are obvious, but what about the unmarried partner of a relative? Married partners are excluded, but I'm not sure about unmarried partners. Or what about the sibling of the unmarried partner of a relative?

You can't use anyone you are in a relationship with or someone you live with. You can't use someone you are related to 'by birth or marriage', so an unmarried partner's brother or sister should be fine.

 

[KeithMcC]

I can sign as a chartered engineer, but a bit disapointingly nobody has ever asked me. Last time I had to get a signature I asked a colleague who was also a chartered engineer.

So can I and I have signed the odd one, I think the last was my God son's! As someone said higher up the thread, if you are in a professional job you will know several other professional people who can sign, but if not you might struggle a bit or end up paying someone professional.

 

[stevetay3]

Time this outdated practice was abolished, what if you have no one you know to counter sign for you are you effectively banned from leaving the country.

 

[Bevan Price]

The whole list of "who can sign" is archaic, and looks like it was compiled by an "arts" person or administrator. Why can a vicar, photographer or pharmacist sign, but not a physicist, chemist or professional astronomer, for example ??

 

[DelW]

I can sign as a chartered engineer, but a bit disapointingly nobody has ever asked me. Last time I had to get a signature I asked a colleague who was also a chartered engineer.

When I was working for a civil engineering contractor, I was often the only C Eng on site, so I used to get asked quite often. Fortunately we tended to use the same labour force and subcontractors on a series of jobs, so I'd usually known them for the necessary time.

 

[alxndr]

The whole list of "who can sign" is archaic, and looks like it was compiled by an "arts" person or administrator. Why can a vicar, photographer or pharmacist sign, but not a physicist, chemist or professional astronomer, for example ??

It's not intended to be an exhaustive list.

 

[johnnychips]

The whole list of "who can sign" is archaic, and looks like it was compiled by an "arts" person or administrator. Why can a vicar, photographer or pharmacist sign, but not a physicist, chemist or professional astronomer, for example ??

I find the whole thing very patronising. Why can’t a bricklayer you have known for two years sign it, if indeed it is really necessary these days?

 

[DelayRepay]

I find the whole thing very patronising. Why can’t a bricklayer you have known for two years sign it, if indeed it is really necessary these days?

Because, clearly, bricklayers cannot be trusted. Otherwise they would be on the list alongside other trustworthy and well respected occupations such as journalists and Members of Parliament. Both of these occupations have absolutely no history of saying things that are not true, do they?!

 

[johncrossley]

It's not intended to be an exhaustive list.

So why don't they just scrap the list?

 

[edwin_m]

I think the idea of the list is that people who are in a "professional" job can face sanctions for dishonesty, either formally via their employers or (perhaps less credibly these days) informally by social pressure. I guess the whole system could be replaced by an arrangement where anyone can countersign, and by doing so is liable to face prosecution if they knowingly do so for someone who turns out not to be the one named on the application. But would people be unwilling to take that risk for no reward?

 

[MotCO]

You can't use anyone you are in a relationship with or someone you live with. You can't use someone you are related to 'by birth or marriage', so an unmarried partner's brother or sister should be fine.

So this is discouraging marriage?

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting, thanks. I had not thought of that reason, but..... If someone uses a photo on their passport which does not look like them, will that not be discovered the first time they use it ?!! Or is it perhaps to prevent fraudulent issue of passports ?

It’s supposed to stop someone else applying with their own correct photo and your name…

 

[peteb]

Surely if your passport is lost rather than expired, the previous coutersignatory should be Ok? In any case one of your previous teachers will always do it for free if you can still contact them

Why would anyone expect an ex-teacher to countersign a passport for free? It's got nothing to do with their contract of employment either with an Academy or Local Authority. And GPDR prevents those bodies revealing employees names and addresses anyway.

 

[johncrossley]

Passports on paper seem like an outdated concept. A lot of hassle to sort out if you lose it abroad. Maybe they should be online only (like the proposal for provisional driving licences)? You can scan your phone at the ePassport gate, or just type in your passport number if you don't have a smartphone, and your face is compared to the one on computer. This could be used especially for use for travel between UK, European and other major developed countries.

 

[87 027]

There are European projects looking at aspects of this

http://projectprotect.eu/ (Pervasive and User Focused Biometrics Border Project)

The main aim of PROTECT is to build an advanced biometric-based person identification system that works robustly across a range of border crossing types and that has strong user-centric features.

D4FLY – DETECTING DOCUMENT FRAUD AND IDENTITY ON THE FLY

d4fly.eu

The project focuses on enhancing the quality and efficiency of identity verification at border crossings in all modalities: land, air, and sea by providing faster and more secure border control solutions.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't agree with a lot of hi-Tec stuff replacing the physical passport.

But the Irish option of allowing the local police to countersign seems like a good compromise.