Our site can offer much lower fares than LNER

[yorkie]

Newcastle to London from noon today

We are charging £110.45 / £112.91 for trains which LNER is charging £200.80

This is because LNER are trialling the DfT's plan to abolish (Super) Off Peak tickets, leaving passengers with only Anytime fares, unless quota-controlled Advance fares are available.

At the moment, the trial only applies to London to Newcastle, London to Edinburgh, and flows between/nearby those areas. It does not apply to London to York or York to Newcastle.

If the plan for fares "simplification" and "reform" is successful, everyone would be charged £200.80 on a day such as today.

There is higher than normal demand for services between Edinburgh/Newcastle and London today, due to Heathrow Airport being shut (covered by a separate thread).

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm not so sure, you may want to caveat that. For most people our site can usually .......

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not so sure, you may want to caveat that. For most people our site can usually .......

It doesn't negate the fact that LNER's so called fares reform is as crooked as a three bob bit.

 

[thomasheywood]

View attachment 176870
View attachment 176871

Newcastle to London from noon today

We are charging £110.45 / £112.91 for trains which LNER is charging £200.80

This is because LNER are trialling the DfT's plan to abolish (Super) Off Peak tickets, leaving passengers with only Anytime fares, unless quota-controlled Advance fares are available.

At the moment, the trial only applies to London to Newcastle, London to Edinburgh, and flows between/nearby those areas. It does not apply to London to York or York to Newcastle.

If the plan for fares "simplification" and "reform" is successful, everyone would be charged £200.80 on a day such as today.

There is higher than normal demand for services between Edinburgh/Newcastle and London today, due to Heathrow Airport being shut (covered by a separate thread).

Why even pay £110 for a split ticket when you could pay just over £90 (or 60 for a railcard reduced ticket) for a Sunderland to London super off peak ticket which I’ve just done today? (In fact the LNER staff at Newcastle even told me to purchase this ticket, over their so-called flex tickets)

 

[Watershed]

Why even pay £110 for a split ticket when you could pay just over £90 (or 60 for a railcard reduced ticket) for a Sunderland to London super off peak ticket which I’ve just done today? (In fact the LNER staff at Newcastle even told me to purchase this ticket, over their so-called flex tickets)

Well absolutely, but I don't think an accredited retailer could suggest that, so most people wouldn't be aware that it's an option.

LNER have previously warned frontline staff not to suggest overdistance tickets, supposedly on the basis that this contravenes 'impartial retailing' obligations. It's incredibly ironic how they're happy to rely on the TSA when it suits them in that respect, and yet they describe the fares structure it has preserved as 'outdated' when justifying the "simpler fares" changes!

 

[moleman212]

I'm not so sure, you may want to caveat that. For most people our site can usually .......

This would be true if LNER hadn't abolished 'Smartsave'

 

[Kite159]

...

Why even pay £110 for a split ticket when you could pay just over £90 (or 60 for a railcard reduced ticket) for a Sunderland to London super off peak ticket which I’ve just done today? (In fact the LNER staff at Newcastle even told me to purchase this ticket, over their so-called flex tickets)

Why did I think Sunderland was part of the extended trial?
Those in the know will probably buy a flexible single from Blaydon or buy not to Kings Cross but to Finsbury Park/Kentish Town or even potentially Clapham Junction.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not so sure, you may want to caveat that. For most people our site can usually .......

What are the counter examples you're suggesting are out there? Passengers buying Priv tickets? Passengers who consider the 2% credit the same as a discount on the ticket price? Note that even those entitled to Privelage rate may find that the forum's site is cheaper than using their discount, on occasion. Also note that most people wouldn't consider the 2% credit until they spend it - and it can only be spent on a subsequent non-refundable LNER ticket on the LNER site. In any case, today the forum's site has saved well over 2% on nearly every journey.

 

[styles]

I mean every split ticket fare for next Friday is cheaper with TrainPal, as they don't charge a high commission on split ticket fares

 

[Dirty_Mac]

I mean every split ticket fare for next Friday is cheaper with TrainPal, as they don't charge a high commission on split ticket fares

Yeah but then you're dealing with Trainpal. And last I checked they don't even give you individual ticket prices in the receipt

 

[yorkie]

Why even pay £110 for a split ticket when you could pay just over £90 (or 60 for a railcard reduced ticket) for a Sunderland to London super off peak ticket which I’ve just done today? (In fact the LNER staff at Newcastle even told me to purchase this ticket, over their so-called flex tickets)

Good luck building a site that suggests this; LNER would get you shut down, I'm sure.

LNER issued a very strongly worded memo to ticket office staff instructing them not to circumvent the trial not to sell anything other than through fares. I see LNER staff are ignoring their employers instructions, which says a lot about how awful the 'fares reform' being trialled actually is.

It's also very telling that their staff are prepared to risk disciplinary action in order to help people get around the trial.

I wonder how widespread it is that LNER staff are instructing passengers to circumvent the trial? Does anyone know? Also does anyone know if LNER management take disciplinary action against staff who do this?

I wonder if @David Horne will be prepared to stand up to the DfT to say the trial clearly isn't a success, that passengers don't want it, and that at least some of their staff would rather go against company instructions than knowingly charge customers high Anytime fares at traditionally super off peak times?

I really hope he does. But would he risk losing his job if he doesn't stick to the DfT's expectations?

But, back to the original point, all of this is good evidence to demonstrate how poor the proposed fare structure is for passengers.

It's already bad enough that return journeys were increased at a higher rate than inflation, and that Off Peak to/from London was replaced with Anytime, but the abolishment of Super Off Peak is a step that goes far beyond anything remotely reasonable.

However, I don't agree that passengers should avoid buying online and should instead hope that the staff at their local ticket office can suggest alternative origin/destination combinations, contrary to the instructions of their employer, if that is what you are suggesting?

I mean every split ticket fare for next Friday is cheaper with TrainPal, as they don't charge a high commission on split ticket fares
View attachment 176921

That's not what I am seeing!




Image shows trains for Friday 28 March Newcastle to London:
1131 £83.90 both
1158 £88.40 both
1227 £81.40 Trainpal / £79.14 Railforums

Yes sometimes Trainpal beat us, but...

Yeah but then you're dealing with Trainpal...

...and your money goes to a Chinese based company that is difficult to get customer support from, as well as losing a seat selector.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why even pay £110 for a split ticket when you could pay just over £90 (or 60 for a railcard reduced ticket) for a Sunderland to London super off peak ticket which I’ve just done today? (In fact the LNER staff at Newcastle even told me to purchase this ticket, over their so-called flex tickets)

I think this is the frustrating thing about the whole trail. We have no-one powerful sticking up from us as people using the super-off peaks are the minority.

What will happen is that lots of people will do this. LNER will see a significant increase of people using the ticket from Sunderland. They will notice that this doesn’t correspond with the number of scans at Sunderland. As if by magic LNER will announce due to the success of the trail - Sunderland is now included in the same way as they did in Scotland where the last station as part of the trail moves further away from Edinburgh. I do the same thing myself and just find the first station I can buy a super off-peak from if I can’t split.

I suspect the forums website if they can figure out how to do that will make a killing.

As for the hope that David Horne will ever admit that there are some big losers and this is only a back door fare increase. I think hell will freeze over. I rarely need a super-off peak for that distance, however it is now cheaper to fly on the day. Something the rail industry should not be advocating. Lumo of course can help but when it is busy they are full.

 

[robbeech]

The fact that a government run company is using millions of pounds of tax payers money to invent money grabbing schemes to rinse the general public of as much money as they can then fabricating results to “prove” the trial (which can’t be proved as there is no measurable choice) is a success says everything you could possibly need to know about the railway in 2025.

It’s truly horrific for passengers, there are simply no up sides to the scheme at all (unlikely the single leg pricing thing which is largely positive for most passengers*).

As for split sites, I’ve never personally found a flow I’ve needed to travel on with cheaper splits than the forum’s site / other transport driven sites, unless there has been some interesting change in restriction or an error in the other retailer’s database when it comes to routeing or timetabling. That said, it does happen and we’ve seen a few linked here where a different algorithm manages to find something else and that’s welcoming as this can be used to learn, the result of this is better fares for passengers.

It’s incredibly disappointing that we see people here sticking up for the LNER ‘trial’, especially without providing any justifiable argument to suggest it’s an improvement.

 

[yorkie]

I suspect the forums website if they can figure out how to do that will make a killing.

The code exists and I have seen the results, but the forum's site could never implement it, for various reasons.

Even if it was allowed to be done, it would result in the abolishment of cheaper fares and/or route restrictions, break of journey restrictions, price increases.

 

[robbeech]

I suspect the forums website if they can figure out how to do that will make a killing.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, and others threads over the years this would be possible but would never ever ever be allowed (and I sort of understand why) and LNER would crack down hard on anyone trying to do it. They’re unhappy with the concept of split ticketing as it is, it reduces their profit massively, rest assured they’ll always be trying ways to screw the passenger over behind that (very genuine) mask of friendly inclusivity.


A car full of people (let’s say 5) wanting to travel London to Newcastle and back at short notice could save cracking on for 4 figures by driving, and hundreds and hundreds of pounds hiring a car and driving that.
Infact if we’re being totally honest, it’d only cost around £1100 return to get a taxi. (Source : I put an artist and their tour manager in a private hire last month from Apollo Victoria to Durham and it was £450)

 

[Failed Unit]

The code exists and I have seen the results, but the forum's site could never implement it, for various reasons.

Even if it was allowed to be done, it would result in the abolishment of cheaper fares and/or route restrictions, break of journey restrictions, price increases.

Yes - Absolutely be careful of what I wish for. This sadly seems a game of cat and mouse. Where us consumers are the mice. On a journey I regularly make Welwyn Garden City - Market Rasn. Splitting Tickets is the only way I get a fare now, that is close to getting the cost of driving. Some of the savings make no real sense like splitting at Stevenage because APs have no quotas from Welwyn Garden City. The same at the other end where quota exists at Lincoln but not Market Rasen. The industry has force sites like the forums to exist and I am very grateful they do. I would never think of splitting at Hykeham for example if I was doing it myself.

 

[thomasheywood]

I think this is the frustrating thing about the whole trail. We have no-one powerful sticking up from us as people using the super-off peaks are the minority.

What will happen is that lots of people will do this. LNER will see a significant increase of people using the ticket from Sunderland. They will notice that this doesn’t correspond with the number of scans at Sunderland. As if by magic LNER will announce due to the success of the trail - Sunderland is now included in the same way as they did in Scotland where the last station as part of the trail moves further away from Edinburgh. I do the same thing myself and just find the first station I can buy a super off-peak from if I can’t split.

I suspect the forums website if they can figure out how to do that will make a killing.

As for the hope that David Horne will ever admit that there are some big losers and this is only a back door fare increase. I think hell will freeze over. I rarely need a super-off peak for that distance, however it is now cheaper to fly on the day. Something the rail industry should not be advocating. Lumo of course can help but when it is busy they are full.

There is no way of scanning your ticket at Sunderland, there are no barriers. Also, a Sunderland to London ticket is valid on the Metro so again, no conductors to scan or check tickets.

 

[Failed Unit]

There is no way of scanning your ticket at Sunderland, there are no barriers. Also, a Sunderland to London ticket is valid on the Metro so again, no conductors to scan or check tickets.

Ok. However if LNER see a significant increase in people travelling from Sunderland i am sure they will welcome them into the fare increase trial.

 

[RJ]

I suspect the forums website if they can figure out how to do that will make a killing.

To be fair a website isn't required to do that for people. I'm a lay passenger and finding ways to circumvent the trial price hikes only takes a couple of minutes. I did it the other week, buying a ticket to some station I'd never even heard of before which significantly undercut the fares LNER were advertising between London and Newcastle - and bypassed the reservation restrictions. The information is out there for anyone who wants to save money on their tickets.

 

[Kite159]

Was it David Horne who once said in an interview with one of the rail magazines that he wanted to do away with flexible tickets and move towards a booked train only model similar to airplanes? Just look at their behaviour during the event 5 years ago.

Sadly I suspect the trial will be deemed a success (at generating lots more money, especially at weekends when Newcastle - London is reduced to 1tph) and will get extended to cover more stations.

Without noticing that unlike planes which are A to B direct, his trains call at other stations and booked train only isn't great for local journeys.

 

[Hadders]

I fear the direction of travel will be for the trial to be seemed a success and for it to be rolled out across the LNER network. We know, of course, that the trial is not a success from a passenger point of view but LNER will no doubt say:

They're simplifying fares
Removing terms like Super Off Peak that people say are confusing and belong in the 1990s
Making thousands of fares cheaper than before (yeah right - but not at times people want to travel)
It's what passengers want

I've been warning about this sort of thing for years. People who say that fares will get cheaper when GBR takes over will have a rude awakening - nationalised LNER is demonstrating what is likely to happen.

 

[DeverseSam]

The 1343 today is showing £318.20 as the cheapest on the basis of no standard class available

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The 1343 today is showing £318.20 as the cheapest on the basis of no standard class available

Do the rail replacement buses operating today on the leg between York and Doncaster have a First Class section? Thought not!

 

[Msq71423]

The code exists and I have seen the results, but the forum's site could never implement it, for various reasons.

Just a thought, if the code exists, what if this was offered purely as a 'journey planning' type tool suggesting a possible valid ticket but without the option to buy said ticket?

This would be both helpful for passenger - and could also be seen as campaigning on behalf of the mice in the cat vs mouse scenario.. it could generate headlines such as "Website generates cheaper train tickets blocked by LNER/DfT". So if you were able to generate the cheaper journeys but are then blocked from selling the tickets (only advising of what ticket you could putchase) - Martin Lewis would be all over it campaigning for change!

 

[MrJeeves]

Just a thought, if the code exists, what if this was offered purely as a 'journey planning' type tool suggesting a possible valid ticket but without the option to buy said ticket?

This would be both helpful for passenger - and could also be seen as campaigning on behalf of the mice in the cat vs mouse scenario.. it could generate headlines such as "Website generates cheaper train tickets blocked by LNER/DfT". So if you were able to generate the cheaper journeys but are then blocked from selling the tickets (only advising of what ticket you could putchase) - Martin Lewis would be all over it campaigning for change!

Sure, if you want all of those longer-distance and cheaper tickets to be removed or increased in price.

 

[yorkie]

Just a thought, if the code exists, what if this was offered purely as a 'journey planning' type tool suggesting a possible valid ticket but without the option to buy said ticket?

A very bad idea; some people have been threatening to send the information to pricing managers with the intention that lower priced fares are restricted/withdrawn etc.

This would be both helpful for passenger

Not necessarily; what if the cheapest ticket is between two stations that are not near either origin or destination, and is only permitted due to a major loophole? The passenger won't find it helpful to be (incorrectly) told their ticket isn'v valid.

- and could also be seen as campaigning on behalf of the mice in the cat vs mouse scenario..

It would soon get lower priced fares withdrawn, thus making it much worse for people who use such tickets.

it could generate headlines such as "Website generates cheaper train tickets blocked by LNER/DfT"

This has effectively already happened, albeit on a much smaller scale, but such headlines were not generated, sadly.

. So if you were able to generate the cheaper journeys but are then blocked from selling the tickets (only advising of what ticket you could putchase) - Martin Lewis would be all over it campaigning for change!

I am not convinced about that. I don't think there is an expectation that people should be given very odd tickets that could be confusing for the passenger.

If you attend a fares workshop, forum walk or forum meal, I would be happy to give you some examples.

 

[Msq71423]

Fair enough, I understand. I guess like many others I find the fares system frustrating!

 

[signed]

Just a thought, if the code exists, what if this was offered purely as a 'journey planning' type tool suggesting a possible valid ticket but without the option to buy said ticket?

It would cause a major Streisand Effect