Out with credit-card sized stock and in with mobile ticketing - is it too early?

[221129]

My point was, if I lost my phone, I would lose not only my phone but my ticket too.

But you are much less likely to lose your phone than a small piece of orange paper. Or you could print it out separately if you really wanted to.

 

[philthetube]

Out of curiosity, I tried buying a ticket on my I-phone. It involved the following stages:

1. Switch it on
2. Go to internet
3. Go to National Rail
4. Go to journey planner
5. Type in starting point
6. Type in destination
7. Press Go
8. Click on ticket option
9. Redirected to TfW site
10. Choose option to buy online
11. Click on "how to buy online help"
12. Get blank screen . . .

Had it worked I would presumably have needed:

13. Confirm ticket choice
14. Choose payment option
15. Type in 16-digit card number
16. Expiry date
17. CVV code

Is that it?

Or I can go into the booking office and say "Day Return Nantwich please" and wave my card at the card reader, take my ticket and travel.

Appreciate there may be some short cuts as you become more used to the system, but . . .

I do find it difficult that to believe that you have an I phone which is not normally turned on and connected to the internet.


Instead of which you;

1.walk up to the ticket office
2.wait for person in front to have 5 minute discussion about ticket
3.wait for person in front to get credit card out of wallet
4 wait for person in front to insert card.
5. wait for card to be accepted by machine
6.wait for staff to hand over ticket
6.waif for person to put ticket in wallet
7.wait for person in front to walk away
8. approach ticket office window
9.ask for ticket to destination
10.have clerk confirm what you said
11.have clerk issue ticket
12. get card, cash out of pocket.

I have now reached 12 so I wont go on, yes some of these are silly but then I am not the only one playing that game to try and prove a point.

In resality on phone;

1. open relevent app
2. input journey, or select regular one.
3. select ticket
4.either input payment details or use saved payment method.

done.

 

[philthetube]

I do wonder if tickets may eventually be dispensed with all together, with people just carrying some form of identity card and buying travel from a data base which would then give staff the info needed to check that travel was paid for.

 

[MikeWh]

I do find it difficult that to believe that you have an I phone which is not normally turned on and connected to the internet.


Instead of which you;

1.walk up to the ticket office
2.wait for person in front to have 5 minute discussion about ticket
3.wait for person in front to get credit card out of wallet
4 wait for person in front to insert card.
5. wait for card to be accepted by machine
6.wait for staff to hand over ticket
6.waif for person to put ticket in wallet
7.wait for person in front to walk away
8. approach ticket office window
9.ask for ticket to destination
10.have clerk confirm what you said
11.have clerk issue ticket
12. get card, cash out of pocket.

I have now reached 12 so I wont go on, yes some of these are silly but then I am not the only one playing that game to try and prove a point.

In resality on phone;

1. open relevent app
2. input journey, or select regular one.
3. select ticket
4.either input payment details or use saved payment method.

done.

In first scenario you have gone way over the top. Items 2-7 are simply "wait for previous customer(s) to be served, if there are any". In your second example you could expand each one with other stages to prove a point. In particular, inputting a journey into an app is way more complex than asking the clerk for a return to X, even accounting for checking whether you need an anytime or off-peak return.

What you have done is a classic case of twisting facts to prove the point you want to make.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

• If any one of those tickets would open the gate when put through on paper then gate opens

This step is quite complicated. At some point the ticket needs to be marked as used, so if more than one ticket on the card is valid at the origin, a transient ticket is created and the decision about which product to use is deferred to the validation at the end of the journey. This is because ITSO can (but almost never does!) allow single/return tickets, carnets, day or period passes and PAYG balance at once for different journeys or geographical areas to be on the card at the same time. The validation step may also cause expired tickets to be deleted, if the card is full. It's a complex and well thought-out system (spoiled a bit by politics), given the perfectly sensible requirement at that time to not rely on anything being connected to the outside world in real-time. If we want something like a simple reference to a ticket held elsewhere, then presumably this could be done by storing an 'entitlement', which is how concessionary passes are handled.

That's why you have to "collect" any tickets onto the card, e.g. by specifying a station to do this.

Do any TOC schemes allow collection at any validator like Oyster does? That's a good development that the railways would benefit from.

 

[Haywain]

inputting a journey into an app is way more complex than asking the clerk for a return to X, even accounting for checking whether you need an anytime or off-peak return.

It's not that simple at a ticket office if the ticket being sought is for future travel and, potentially, starting at a different station. And that is before getting into what tickets may be available, journey times and seating arrangements.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That would require gates and "gripping irons" to have a fast enough Internet connection to move the entire functionality online without slowing progress through barriers while a quick HTTPS call is made. That's coming but we aren't quite there yet. Once it's possible it would have many benefits.

We'll see hopefully tomorrow

My point was, if I lost my phone, I would lose not only my phone but my ticket too.

You can always print your e-Ticket or download to another device

 

[_toommm_]

We'll see hopefully tomorrow



You can always print your e-Ticket or download to another device

You can also display your ticket on an Apple Watch, if the app you use allows you to send your ticket to the Wallet App (off the top of my head, TheTrainLine definitely does it, LNER should do).
I'm sure you can probably get some TOC's app on there too.

EDIT: TheTrainLine is available on there.

 

[AM9]

But you are much less likely to lose your phone than a small piece of orange paper. Or you could print it out separately if you really wanted to.

That depends on what you mean by 'lose'. A smartphone represents a much more valuable item to a thief than a paper ticket, and as so many posts here suggst, those with the most exotic models play with them during the journey. I don't think that many passengers spend their time on trains playing with their ticket!

 

[philthetube]

In first scenario you have gone way over the top. Items 2-7 are simply "wait for previous customer(s) to be served, if there are any". In your second example you could expand each one with other stages to prove a point. In particular, inputting a journey into an app is way more complex than asking the clerk for a return to X, even accounting for checking whether you need an anytime or off-peak return.

What you have done is a classic case of twisting facts to prove the point you want to make.

Totally agree I went over the top, that was the point, the initial list started with switch on phone, followed by connect to internet, eequally over the top to any normal Iphone user.

 

[Jozhua]

The first time I used an E-ticket, my phone died halfway through the journey and the USB port broke, making it impossible to charge.

Never again

 

[Harpers Tate]

The first time I used an E-ticket, my phone died halfway through the journey and the USB port broke, making it impossible to charge.

Never again

Which neatly brings me back to my earlier point about (what is in my view) a pre-requisite for any such enforced move away from a paper option to anything wholly reliant on pocket technology, and that is a wholesale revisit of the "unable to show a ticket" practice.
Such as - if unable to show ticket (for whatever technical reason) there is a fallback option that does not involve firms like TIL and/or punitive action by default. Unable to show ticket = give details, and have a period of time thereafter in which you can demonstrate that you had indeed bought a ticket, it had not been used (nor was used since) = end of proceedings. No admin fees, no penalty fares, no court appearances, etc. Onus on the TOC to prove any such ticket was not valid (eg had been used), not on the user to prove it was valid.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Which neatly brings me back to my earlier point about (what is in my view) a pre-requisite for any such enforced move away from a paper option to anything wholly reliant on pocket technology, and that is a wholesale revisit of the "unable to show a ticket" practice.
Such as - if unable to show ticket (for whatever technical reason) there is a fallback option that does not involve firms like TIL and/or punitive action by default. Unable to show ticket = give details, and have a period of time thereafter in which you can demonstrate that you had indeed bought a ticket, it had not been used (nor was used since) = end of proceedings. No admin fees, no penalty fares, no court appearances, etc. Onus on the TOC to prove any such ticket was not valid (eg had been used), not on the user to prove it was valid.

Just print the PDF simples

 

[AM9]

Just print the PDF simples

Or have TVMs to print the same QR code tickets that are sent via e-mails. It really needs to be visually the same for all ticket media, that way gates can all be non-consuming of tickets, the tickets cannot be demagnetised and those without phones aren't penalised.

 

[scrapy]

Merseyrail need an ultimatum - accept e-tickets for all flows or leave whatever RSP is called now entirely. Same with Southeastern.

All well and good, but I suspect if they had this choice (which they don't as it's a requirement of Mereeytravel being able to let the concession) they would leave as they would then get their full allocation of revenue for through tickets as they would charge for separate tickets. It would be the passenger who'd loose out. I know Metrolink looked at becoming fully integrated in the early days and it would have cost far too much.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Transport Scotland and TfL are much bigger problems than Merseyrail. If I had to prioritize they would be my main targets

 

[Ralph Ayres]

The first time I used an E-ticket, my phone died halfway through the journey and the USB port broke, making it impossible to charge.

Never again

If you're usually that unlucky, the chances are you'd also lose a paper ticket!

 

[AM9]

If you're usually that unlucky, the chances are you'd also lose a paper ticket!

Does the reliability of a phone have a link with a propensity to lose things? Jozhua didn't lose his phone, it died on him.

 

[paul1609]

Transport Scotland and TfL are much bigger problems than Merseyrail. If I had to prioritize they would be my main targets

You do have to ask how the provincial operators have been allowed to introduce a system that is ill suited to the operators where the bulk of the revenue and journeys are.
I imagine for Southeastern introducing a ticketing system for the very small number of journeys that go outside of the own franchise/GTR area or TFL zones makes absolutely no business sense whatsoever.

 

[py_megapixel]

If you're usually that unlucky, the chances are you'd also lose a paper ticket!

Does the reliability of a phone have a link with a propensity to lose things? Jozhua didn't lose his phone, it died on him.

I don't think either format has the edge in terms of durability.

Paper tickets can be torn, you're less likely to notice if you drop them, they can be accidentally eaten by barriers (yes I know they aren't meant to eat tickets which are still valid but mistakes do happen) and are arguably easier to lose because most people travel with a smartphone all the time and therefore always know where itis.

Phones are likely to break if they are dropped, they can decide to auto-update, they can crash and the batteries can run out.

Neither format is perfect.

 

[Haywain]

You do have to ask how the provincial operators have been allowed to introduce a system that is ill suited to the operators where the bulk of the revenue and journeys are.

I expect that the bulk of the journeys and revenue in Scotland are generated from internal journeys, as is likely to be the case in London. At least in London's case there is some justification in their opposition to barcodes, in that they affect throughput of people at gatelines and slowing that could lead to stations having to close through overcrowding.

 

[AM9]

... they can be accidentally eaten by barriers (yes I know they aren't meant to eat tickets which are still valid but mistakes do happen) ...

Very unlikely if optical scanning is adopted.

 

[MikeWh]

Totally agree I went over the top, that was the point, the initial list started with switch on phone, followed by connect to internet, eequally over the top to any normal Iphone user.

Well most phones go to sleep when not being used and part of the wake-up process often involves entering a PIN or somesuch, so I don't think "switch on phone" is that over the top. Then some people prefer not to use their data when free wi-fi is available (I'm one of them) so "connect to the internet" isn't over the top necessarily either.

Also, you separated "get credit card out of wallet" as a specific task only to happen once the card was required. Well whenever I go to pay for tickets I'll be getting the card out while approaching the window, or while discussing the requirements with the clerk.

Someone else mentioned the time it takes to sell a long distance journey with reservations. I agree, that is likely to be a similar time either on a phone or at the window. But the majority of ticket sales are not complicated long distance journeys. There is usually little to discuss when the requirement is a return to a nearby town or city.

Anyway, thanks for admitting you went over the top. The bottom line is that many ordinary people do have genuine concerns about using new technology and the attitude on here suggesting that they are completely unfounded concerns is not helpful in overcoming them. The other really unhelpful thing is the often draconian, stressful and sometimes unlawful things that happen when mistakes occur. If the railway wants etickets to be taken seriously then they need to make sure that there are no horror stories about being threatened with prosecution etc. Each person who suffers such injustices will tell countless others who will then be wary of the whole thing themselves.

 

[Skymonster]

It seems that the government wishes to replace the credit-card sized ticket stock which has been in use on the railways for some time.

OK, I get the current messaging that encourages mobile ticketing as it involves fewer touch-points but can someone point to any evidence that this is a definite government policy.

 

[221129]

OK, I get the current messaging that encourages mobile ticketing as it involves fewer touch-points but can someone point to any evidence that this is a definite government policy.

It has been pushed by the DfT for at least the last few years.

 

[Skymonster]

It has been pushed by the DfT for at least the last few years.

Yeah, I get that - but outright policy?

 

[[.n]]

PDF viewers are available on the vast majority of even vaguely recent devices, even dumbphones. Not so if you're on an original Nokia, but who is?

My phone is a Nokia, it does what I need it to battery lasts forever, and I can make and receive phone calls, I can even do this thing called text messaging. It's not 3G, doesn't have a camera, but does have snake

 

[Wallsendmag]

That depends on what you mean by 'lose'. A smartphone represents a much more valuable item to a thief than a paper ticket, and as so many posts here suggst, those with the most exotic models play with them during the journey. I don't think that many passengers spend their time on trains playing with their ticket!

Aha the beauty of eTickets , it's quite difficult to lose one. Should you delete it or lose your print out you can just download another.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aha the beauty of eTickets , it's quite difficult to lose one. Should you delete it or lose your print out you can just download another.

Indeed, if you're in a big city and you lose your phone you may well find somewhere that'll let you log into your account and reprint. At airports where Eireflop operate, given their £40 reprint fee, you see third party kiosks that charge you a quid to log in and reprint - maybe those could become commonplace at stations?

TBH, though, I just don't understand how people lose their phone by the minutes. If you're not using it, put it in your pocket or handbag. If you are using it, you're looking at it so you can see where it is. How on earth do some people seem to lose them with quite ridiculous regularity? I've never lost one, and I've destroyed precisely one - an old belt-mounted HTC Windows phone, which was a piece of junk so I was glad to be rid, which I knocked off the belt mount into the bog - but even after doing that, it would have survived long enough to display an e-ticket for that journey, it just started to deteriorate over a few days.

If you crack the screen, which does happen (though I've only ever done a small crack at the edge), it might not scan but most likely it'd be visible enough for a member of staff to verify it manually. Half the time that's all they do anyway (at least on LNR).

 

[py_megapixel]

TBH, though, I just don't understand how people lose their phone by the minutes. If you're not using it, put it in your pocket or handbag. If you are using it, you're looking at it so you can see where it is. How on earth do some people seem to lose them with quite ridiculous regularity? I've never lost one, and I've destroyed precisely one - an old belt-mounted HTC Windows phone, which was a piece of junk so I was glad to be rid, which I knocked off the belt mount into the bog

Indeed it's quite difficult to destroy mobile phones these days, if you use a case or screen protector. The only time I've managed to break one was a very old worn-out one a few years ago which I put into a bag with a leaking water bottle. Unfortunately by the time I realised the bottle was leaking the damage was done, but it still would have been enough to show an E-ticket on as it stayed alive for a few weeks before completely dying.

However, there is the legitimate concern that phones can make themelves temporarily inoperable - for example, if they decide they need to update (or if the train company app decides it needs to update!)