Overcharged between London and Ipswich with invalid Advance ticket?

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lemonic

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Hello,

A friend of mine travelled from London to Ipswich today. He had a railcard-discounted Advance ticket, but missed his train due to a late coach arrival in London, so he got the following train 30 minutes later.

When the conductor came round, he had to buy a new ticket as his Advance ticket was not valid. However, he was sold an Anytime Single for £47.30. I think he should have been sold a railcard-discounted Off Peak Single for £23.85, as this is the ticket he would have been sold had he bought a ticket immediately before travel from the ticket office.

Does anyone agree/disagree with my reasoning? Is there any reason why the Anytime Single was the right fare to be charged?
 
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Chapeltom

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Hello,

A friend of mine travelled from London to Ipswich today. He had a railcard-discounted Advance ticket, but missed his train due to a late coach arrival in London, so he got the following train 30 minutes later.

When the conductor came round, he had to buy a new ticket as his Advance ticket was not valid. However, he was sold an Anytime Single for £47.30. I think he should have been sold a railcard-discounted Off Peak Single for £23.85, as this is the ticket he would have been sold had he bought a ticket immediately before travel from the ticket office.

Does anyone agree/disagree with my reasoning? Is there any reason why the Anytime Single was the right fare to be charged?

The Anytime Single would be charged because it is the full single fare for the journey made, you aren't entitled to a railcard discounted fare on the train.
 

Urban Gateline

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The Anytime Single would be charged because it is the full single fare for the journey made, you aren't entitled to a railcard discounted fare on the train.

Indeed, because the OP's friend chose to ignore the ticket issuing facilities at the London terminal station he likely boarded at, which would have removed the right to purchase a Railcard discounted ticket, sounds like it was a GA service, and they operate a buy before boarding policy which is relevant to this scenario.
 

Mojo

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The Anytime Single would be charged because it is the full single fare for the journey made, you aren't entitled to a railcard discounted fare on the train.

Indeed, because the OP's friend chose to ignore the ticket issuing facilities at the London terminal station he likely boarded at, which would have removed the right to purchase a Railcard discounted ticket, sounds like it was a GA service, and they operate a buy before boarding policy which is relevant to this scenario.

These replies are incorrect.

Since 1 November, the rules across all Tocs have been standardised, and anyone travelling on the correct Toc, on the correct date, but the wrong train "should be charged the fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey." Should the Advance ticket be Railcard discounted, and the Railcard is presented, then the new ticket can also be discounted.

The quote is from Newsrail Express, now within the Manual. This was discussed on these forums recently: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=72927
 

DaveNewcastle

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These replies are incorrect.

Since 1 November, the rules across all Tocs have been standardised, . . . .
Mojo is quite correct.
However it might be helpful to note that concern was raised at the time (just a few weeks ago, now) that this passenger-friendly change might not be communicated as effectively as it ought to be, if unnecessary confusion and mistakes were to be avoided.

This thread has already illustrated 3 people who had not been adequately informed and who ought to be fully conversant with the new procedure: the Inspector / Guard on the Ipswich train, rail professional Urban Gateline, and advisor Chapeltom.

It's quite depressing that this important revision to on-board procedure has been so poorly communicated by the industry's appointed agent, its very own Association, ATOC.
 

Greenback

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It's quite depressing that this important revision to on-board procedure has been so poorly communicated by the industry's appointed agent, its very own Association, ATOC.

It's very depressing, but not particularly surprising.

It may also be more that TOC's have not ensured that staff have been properly briefed!
 

yorkie

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The real test will be how Greater Anglia Customer Relations respond. I will be very interested to find out. Their track record so far is extremely concerning, and if they do not respond positively then they need to be brought to account.
 

wintonian

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It's very depressing, but not particularly surprising.

It may also be more that TOC's have not ensured that staff have been properly briefed!

I wonder if it was the other way round and staff were now supposed to charge the full anytime fare, if TOC's would be as ineffective at communicating these things?
 

Dave1987

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These replies are incorrect.

Since 1 November, the rules across all Tocs have been standardised, and anyone travelling on the correct Toc, on the correct date, but the wrong train "should be charged the fare that would have applied had they purchased it at the station for travel on that train immediately before the start of the journey." Should the Advance ticket be Railcard discounted, and the Railcard is presented, then the new ticket can also be discounted.

The quote is from Newsrail Express, now within the Manual. This was discussed on these forums recently: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=72927

So where is the incentive to the passenger to ensure they have the correct ticket before boarding if they can get the same discounts from guard on board even when travelling from a PF station?
 

wintonian

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So where is the incentive to the passenger to ensure they have the correct ticket before boarding if they can get the same discounts from guard on board even when travelling from a PF station?

Because they will still have to pay the difference between their advance and the appropriate walk-up fare, which could be over £100 in some cases.
 

GadgetMan

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Because they will still have to pay the difference between their advance and the appropriate walk-up fare, which could be over £100 in some cases.

Just to avoid confusion, they would not be paying the difference. The passenger still has to purchase a new ticket, but they'll be offered the cheapest available walk up fare including railcard discount IF the invalid Advance ticket was also discounted.
 

Flamingo

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Mojo is quite correct.
However it might be helpful to note that concern was raised at the time (just a few weeks ago, now) that this passenger-friendly change might not be communicated as effectively as it ought to be, if unnecessary confusion and mistakes were to be avoided.

This thread has already illustrated 3 people who had not been adequately informed and who ought to be fully conversant with the new procedure: the Inspector / Guard on the Ipswich train, rail professional Urban Gateline, and advisor Chapeltom.

It's quite depressing that this important revision to on-board procedure has been so poorly communicated by the industry's appointed agent, its very own Association, ATOC.

I found out on here as well! :roll:
 

eastdyke

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A question from a 'local'.

If the passenger had been approached on the train by an RPI (ie an authorised collector) what would the procedure/cost have been?
Lets say just before the stop at Ipswich so the option for a less expensive point to leave the train has passed.

The GA website has this in their Advance (Ticket) Purchase Terms and Conditions:

* Your ticket is only valid for travel on that nominated service and cannot be used on any other train. If you travel on any other train then you will be treated as if you have no ticket and will be required to buy a full price ticket for your journey (this will be the full single fare and not the difference between this and your advance ticket), or be subject to a Penalty Fare - check our Penalty Fares section for details.

The full terms are here:
http://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-purchase-terms-and-conditions

FWIW They do not appear to have a 'Penalty Fares' section on their website - well I at least cannot find one!!!

It is to be hoped that a suitably senior member of GA Management will be flagged this thread.

Cheers.
 

wintonian

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Just to avoid confusion, they would not be paying the difference. The passenger still has to purchase a new ticket, but they'll be offered the cheapest available walk up fare including railcard discount IF the invalid Advance ticket was also discounted.

Oh yeh right - I forgot that bit. :oops:

either way it could be very expensive on a peak IC service.
 

island

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Whereas a passenger seeking to have their ticket adjusted before travel at the booking office (or on-train if there was no opportunity to purchase) can pay the difference between the price of their Advance and a walk-up ticket, plus a tenner.
 

FGWman

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Whereas a passenger seeking to have their ticket adjusted before travel at the booking office (or on-train if there was no opportunity to purchase) can pay the difference between the price of their Advance and a walk-up ticket, plus a tenner.

And if their original advance was less than a tenner then there would be no point doing it at the ticket office.
 

eastdyke

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And if their original advance was less than a tenner then there would be no point doing it at the ticket office.

Unless perhaps you (as a passenger) are faced with an RPI on the train?

I am totally confused, many customers have no chance.

As according to GA this would be a PF train.

I would really like an expert evaluation of my post at #14 of this thread.

Best!
 

FGWman

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Unless perhaps you (as a passenger) are faced with an RPI on the train?

I am totally confused, many customers have no chance.

As according to GA this would be a PF train.

I would really like an expert evaluation of my post at #14 of this thread.

Best!

Those T&C for Advance tickets are wrong. GA appear not to have updated them.
 

34D

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A question from a 'local'.

If the passenger had been approached on the train by an RPI (ie an authorised collector) what would the procedure/cost have been?
Lets say just before the stop at Ipswich so the option for a less expensive point to leave the train has passed.

The GA website has this in their Advance (Ticket) Purchase Terms and Conditions:



The full terms are here:
http://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tick...tickets/advance-purchase-terms-and-conditions

FWIW They do not appear to have a 'Penalty Fares' section on their website - well I at least cannot find one!!!

It is to be hoped that a suitably senior member of GA Management will be flagged this thread.

Cheers.

As I understand things (generally) a PF isn't given for travelling at the wrong time (off peak ticket in evening peak, etc) and in the case of an advance ticket, the instructions referenced by DaveNewcastle seem to support this.
 

thedbdiboy

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Mojo is quite correct.
However it might be helpful to note that concern was raised at the time (just a few weeks ago, now) that this passenger-friendly change might not be communicated as effectively as it ought to be, if unnecessary confusion and mistakes were to be avoided.

This thread has already illustrated 3 people who had not been adequately informed and who ought to be fully conversant with the new procedure: the Inspector / Guard on the Ipswich train, rail professional Urban Gateline, and advisor Chapeltom.

It's quite depressing that this important revision to on-board procedure has been so poorly communicated by the industry's appointed agent, its very own Association, ATOC.

The change has been clearly and comprehensively communicated from ATOC to TOCs. Some TOCs have been better than others in communicating it internally, but ATOC is not and cannot be responsible for onward briefing of retail issues within the train companies themselves!
 

Greenback

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The change has been clearly and comprehensively communicated from ATOC to TOCs. Some TOCs have been better than others in communicating it internally, but ATOC is not and cannot be responsible for onward briefing of retail issues within the train companies themselves!

I agree - ATOC's remit does not include ensuring that front line staff are briefed and trained effectively!
 

DaveNewcastle

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The change has been clearly and comprehensively communicated from ATOC to TOCs. Some TOCs have been better than others in communicating it internally, but ATOC is not and cannot be responsible for onward briefing of retail issues within the train companies themselves!
I was aware of this probable challenge when making the post you are responding to.
What I find troubling is the position of independence from its contituent members which ATOC frequently chooses to take. It is an association of its members, and as such only has an existence by virtue of its membership, in its entireity.

We could debate at length the separations and gaps which were created by privatisation (unintentionally I'm sure), and it was an imperfect process. But separations which are willfully created between parties who choose to distance themselves from each other with the sole apparent purpose of denying responsibilities cannot be blamed on the structure. When ATOC or any other Association pretends not be the members who have Associated with each other, then we have an Association which has become more concerned with itself than the members who constitute it. We do well to criticise that self-interest.

I agree - ATOC's remit does not include ensuring that front line staff are briefed and trained effectively!
Its remit presumably does not. But if we accept that an association is its membership, then it helps no one to attempt to separate itself from those who have that responsibility.

Perhaps in my original post, instead of writing "ATOC", I could have written "ATOC and its member TOCs". But that would merely have been a tautology.

If anyone wants to pursue this distinction, then perhaps it would be clearer to do so in a new thread.
 
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AlexS

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The change has been clearly and comprehensively communicated from ATOC to TOCs. Some TOCs have been better than others in communicating it internally, but ATOC is not and cannot be responsible for onward briefing of retail issues within the train companies themselves!

Certainly it was emailed out by my TOC, and a printed version is pinned to our noticeboard.
 

AlterEgo

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The change has been clearly and comprehensively communicated from ATOC to TOCs. Some TOCs have been better than others in communicating it internally, but ATOC is not and cannot be responsible for onward briefing of retail issues within the train companies themselves!

I agree entirely. The brief from ATOC was abundantly clear and was passed to all TOCs.
 
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