Overcharging at Meadowhall

[unlevel42]

1) When buying day return tickets from Meadowhall to Doncaster at 1400hrs, I was asked when I was returning. I said I did not know, but knowing that there is an afternoon peak for travel within SYPTE I said I would pay the 'excess' if I needed to. Subsequently found out that I had been charged the peak rate.
Q1. Is there a default position of charging peak rate?
Q2. As I really have not got a clue about 'excess' would I have been allowed to pay the difference if we had travelled back at peak?


2) I had 2X ordinary return 1st class tickets from Sheffield to Stockport. Due to a change in our plans arrived at Meadowhall. At the ticket shop, despite really not having a clue about 'excess' I asked if I could Zero Excess to a Meadowhall to Stockport ticket as I knew it was the same train and the fare was the same. I was refused an 'excess' of any kind as " there is no first class return fare between Meadowhall and Sheffield. I had a first class ticket so there was no second class excess allowed. I was offered singles.
Q3. Why is there a 1st class Anytime Day Return fare available when there is no 1st class Anytime Return fare.
Q4. Was I wrong in expecting to have a 'zero excess' or any 'excess'?
Q5. This train is extremely busy and it would have been very difficult moving through the train with luggage, could I have asked the guard to 'excess'
if I had sat in my "soon to become" reserved seat?
Q6. Is there an idiot's guide to excess tickets for those in the "sticks"?

 

[cuccir]

1) When buying day return tickets from Meadowhall to Doncaster at 1400hrs, I was asked when I was returning. I said I did not know, but knowing that there is an afternoon peak for travel within SYPTE I said I would pay the 'excess' if I needed to. Subsequently found out that I had been charged the peak rate.
Q1. Is there a default position of charging peak rate?
Q2. As I really have not got a clue about 'excess' would I have been allowed to pay the difference if we had travelled back at peak?

Sounds perhaps like miscommunication here - did the person think you were saying that you'd pay 'the excess', that is, the higher fare, so you have maximum flexibility? If you're at a ticket office you should be able to ask the person selling you the ticket to tell when the peak/off-peak times for that fare are. At a computer, the easiest way to access those details is via BR Fares.

If you're referring to 'excessing' the fare, then that can be done if you buy an Off-Peak return and want to then return during the peak period: you would be charged the difference in price between the Off-Peak and the Anytime tickets. So yes, in future, you can buy the off-peak return and then excess this later if needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2) I had 2X ordinary return 1st class tickets from Sheffield to Stockport. Due to a change in our plans arrived at Meadowhall. At the ticket shop, despite really not having a clue about 'excess' I asked if I could Zero Excess to a Meadowhall to Stockport ticket as I knew it was the same train and the fare was the same. I was refused an 'excess' of any kind as " there is no first class return fare between Meadowhall and Sheffield. I had a first class ticket so there was no second class excess allowed. I was offered singles.
Q3. Why is there a 1st class Anytime Day Return fare available when there is no 1st class Anytime Return fare.
Q4. Was I wrong in expecting to have a 'zero excess' or any 'excess'?

What ticket did you hold?

There's a First Class Anytime Return from Meadowhall to Stockport for £46.80 - as you say, that's the same price as Sheffield to Stockport. It's not a 'Day' Return - it's a full Anytime Return. You're right to say that a zero fare excess would be appropriate, though some train companies are funny about offering them. If someone refuses, you can always ask them to write on your ticket to validate it for the extra travel. The existence of a Meadowhall-Sheffield fare doesn't come into it but, to that point, 'period' returns don't exist for short flows to stop people abusing them (reusing multiple times if not checked by guards).

There's also a TransPennineExpress Only First First Class Anytime Return from Sheffield to Stockport for £33.60. There is no equivalent TPE only fare from Meadowhall to Stockport, and company-specific tickets cannot be excessed - yes, this does seem a little unfair. In this case, selling singles to Sheffield is the correct approach.

In situation (1) the staff member has seemingly been wrong in this situation; in situation (2) they've followed the correct procedure and you've stumbled into one of the gaps in the fares system!

--Edited extra post--

Q5. This train is extremely busy and it would have been very difficult moving through the train with luggage, could I have asked the guard to 'excess'
if I had sat in my "soon to become" reserved seat?

You'd hope that guards would show discretion due to the zero-pounds difference in fares, but we have seen Revenue Protection Inspectors report people over-travelling without the excess even where it was zero. As far as I know these have always been dropped but it causes stress/hassle.

Is there an idiot's guide to excess tickets for those in the "sticks"?

I don't think that there's anything that will help if a staff member has been poorly trained or is simply misinformed, though don't go thinking it's any different in London or at major stations! And of course following the party line, the finest ticketing guide in the land is ours!

 

[unlevel42]

Sounds perhaps like miscommunication here - did the person think you were saying that you'd pay 'the excess', that is, the higher fare, so you have maximum flexibility? If you're at a ticket office you should be able to ask the person selling you the ticket to tell when the peak/off-peak times for that fare are. At a computer, the easiest way to access those details is via BR Fares.

If you're referring to 'excessing' the fare, then that can be done if you buy an Off-Peak return and want to then return during the peak period: you would be charged the difference in price between the Off-Peak and the Anytime tickets. So yes, in future, you can buy the off-peak return and then excess this later if needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What ticket did you hold?

There's a First Class Anytime Return from Meadowhall to Stockport for £46.80 - as you say, that's the same price as Sheffield to Stockport. It's not a 'Day' Return - it's a full Anytime Return. You're right to say that a zero fare excess would be appropriate, though some train companies are funny about offering them. If someone refuses, you can always ask them to write on your ticket to validate it for the extra travel. The existence of a Meadowhall-Sheffield fare doesn't come into it but, to that point, 'period' returns don't exist for short flows to stop people abusing them (reusing multiple times if not checked by guards).

There's also a TransPennineExpress Only First First Class Anytime Return from Sheffield to Stockport for £33.60. There is no equivalent TPE only fare from Meadowhall to Stockport, and company-specific tickets cannot be excessed - yes, this does seem a little unfair. In this case, selling singles to Sheffield is the correct approach.

In situation (1) the staff member has seemingly been wrong in this situation; in situation (2) they've followed the correct procedure and you've stumbled into one of the gaps in the fares system!

--Edited extra post--



You'd hope that guards would show discretion due to the zero-pounds difference in fares, but we have seen Revenue Protection Inspectors report people over-travelling without the excess even where it was zero. As far as I know these have always been dropped but it causes stress/hassle.



I don't think that there's anything that will help if a staff member has been poorly trained or is simply misinformed, though don't go thinking it's any different in London or at major stations! And of course following the party line, the finest ticketing guide in the land is ours!

Thank you very much for your reply. It fits correctly. I had a full anytime return from Sheffield to Stockport.

 

[185143]

On the rare occasion I buy an off peak ticket on the Northern network-if asked when I am coming back-I ALWAYS say off peak, even if I don't know.

The network practice of selling peak tickets 'just in case' is absolutely disgusting and needs stopping immediately!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Bletchleyite]

AIUI you *can* excess a TOC specific ticket to an Any Permitted absent a relevant TOC specific one to excess to, the only thing is that it retains its TOC specific restriction if you do, so would not be useful in this case unless TPE operate Meadowhall to Sheffield, which I don't think they do?

 

[yorkie]

1) When buying day return tickets from Meadowhall to Doncaster at 1400hrs, I was asked when I was returning. I said I did not know, but knowing that there is an afternoon peak for travel within SYPTE I said I would pay the 'excess' if I needed to. Subsequently found out that I had been charged the peak rate.
Q1. Is there a default position of charging peak rate?
Q2. As I really have not got a clue about 'excess' would I have been allowed to pay the difference if we had travelled back at peak?

Could be a misunderstanding, but yes you are entitled to buy the cheaper fare (and pay the difference if applicable), but this is not well advertised.

2) I had 2X ordinary return 1st class tickets from Sheffield to Stockport.

Ouch, that's expensive! Get yourself to a fares workshop and you would never buy such an expensive fare again!

Due to a change in our plans arrived at Meadowhall. At the ticket shop, despite really not having a clue about 'excess' I asked if I could Zero Excess to a Meadowhall to Stockport ticket as I knew it was the same train and the fare was the same. I was refused an 'excess' of any kind as " there is no first class return fare between Meadowhall and Sheffield. I had a first class ticket so there was no second class excess allowed. I was offered singles.
Q3. Why is there a 1st class Anytime Day Return fare available when there is no 1st class Anytime Return fare.
Q4. Was I wrong in expecting to have a 'zero excess' or any 'excess'?
Q5. This train is extremely busy and it would have been very difficult moving through the train with luggage, could I have asked the guard to 'excess'
if I had sat in my "soon to become" reserved seat?
Q6. Is there an idiot's guide to excess tickets for those in the "sticks"?

The excess is £0, but some staff don't know how to issue excess fares, and even if they do, many are reluctant to issue £0 fares for varying reasons (depending on company policy, it may also be forbidden!).

There is no entitlement to such an excess, but the Guard may be more accommodating than the ticket office (but where the ticket office is open, this may be problematical; I'd suggest asking before boarding if practicable)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The zero excess thing is increasingly a problem - before PFs and prosecution-happy TOCs you'd just do what you were going to excess to and explain to the guard, and there would be no problem. Now TOCs are increasingly strict yet often refuse to allow the correct regularisation of the situation to take place.

 

[yorkie]

The zero excess thing is increasingly a problem - before PFs and prosecution-happy TOCs you'd just do what you were going to excess to and explain to the guard, and there would be no problem. Now TOCs are increasingly strict yet often refuse to allow the correct regularisation of the situation to take place.

That's right, and who is going to stop them?

 

[sheff1]

AIUI you *can* excess a TOC specific ticket to an Any Permitted absent a relevant TOC specific one to excess to, the only thing is that it retains its TOC specific restriction if you do, so would not be useful in this case unless TPE operate Meadowhall to Sheffield, which I don't think they do?

One train every hour for most of the day.

The 'overcharging' for the Meadowhall to Doncaster ticket issue is why I always prefer to buy from a TVM or online but if, as the OP states, the passengers "really have not got a clue" that makes things difficult. One would hope the booking office staff did have rather more than a clue but, unfortunately, that is often not the case.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....company-specific tickets cannot be excessed - yes, this does seem a little unfair...

AIUI you *can* excess a TOC specific ticket to an Any Permitted absent a relevant TOC specific one to excess to, the only thing is that it retains its TOC specific restriction if you do....

I can see no good nor valid reason for this. I'm not denying it may be true; just that there is absolutely no good cause. Any half useful settlement system could and should recognise the adjusted transaction and settle accordingly - i.e. with the original sum NOT given over to the specific TOC and the total of the two sums paid settled amongst participating TOCs in proportion with the relevant agreements..

 

[unlevel42]

...
Ouch, that's expensive! Get yourself to a fares workshop and you would never buy such an expensive fare again!...

Do they do:
Flexibility of time/day
Railcards
Luggage
Medical
Connections
Convenience
All at the same time?