Overcrowding on North Wales Coast When The Sun Shines This Summer

[wobman]

You can think what you want, but Philipe tells the truth (as always). Staff in the North are fully stretched as it is between working the existing services, undergoing training on 230s and MKIV and route learning - there is no space at all to start training staff on 170s as well.

In any case, there is no mention as to when this transfer will happen. I'm not in the least surprised to hear mention of it, as it makes a lot of sense - the 170s are something of an oddball in the TfW fleet, and aren't especially suitable for the routes they're being used on now or the ones planned for their future. So long as it doesn't happen immediately, and there's something suitable lined up to replace them, it seems pretty sensible to me.

I suggest people show patience and wait to see what's actually happening before getting worked up.

I hope there's a traction swap with EMR for their 158's & they get the underutilised 170's, it would be very beneficial for TFW.

The weekend trains along the N Wales coast are getting busy now, we can all see the chaos on it way this summer. Using the a55 like some say won't help, as the congestion on that road in the summer is well known & there's always caravan based accidents.

I'm glad people like yourself that work in the industry actually understand what's going on & personally I'm glad TFW have worked with the heavily criticised by some posters traincrew unions to stop the use of local door operation during covid restrictions.

 

[Bikeman78]

I hope there's a traction swap with EMR for their 158's & they get the underutilised 170's, it would be very beneficial for TFW.

The weekend trains along the N Wales coast are getting busy now, we can all see the chaos on it way this summer. Using the a55 like some say won't help, as the congestion on that road in the summer is well known & there's always caravan based accidents.

Agreed. Some full and standing trains the past three days despite the poor weather. If more units aren't forthcoming from somewhere it will be a disaster.

 

[wobman]

Agreed. Some full and standing trains the past three days despite the poor weather. If more units aren't forthcoming from somewhere it will be a disaster.

There's been many trains full & standing already in the last few weekends, this may bank holiday weekend TFW n Wales coast trains had not to stop orders due to how full they were !

 

[PHILIPE]

Agreed. Some full and standing trains the past three days despite the poor weather. If more units aren't forthcoming from somewhere it will be a disaster.

With a juggle of diagrams there will be 2 x 153s left spare at Chester from this week with the flexibility to use for strengthening along the Coast. People keep on saying on here that more units are required but never suggest where they should come from. You can't take the North Wales Coast in isolation as it a situation which exists UK wide.

 

[craigybagel]

I hope there's a traction swap with EMR for their 158's & they get the underutilised 170's, it would be very beneficial for TFW.

That would be very logical, and is something I've been expecting to happen ever since it was announced that EMR were struggling to get hold of the 170s their franchise bid required (even before it was announced they were retaining the Liverpool services). It would require a bit of work on the Heart of Wales to get 158s cleared, but it seems a much quicker and simpler solution than training staff up on 170s - especially when the routes planned for 170s in the long term require neither the ⅓ ⅔ doors nor 100mph capabilities of those units.

And if EMR have looked after their 158s as well as their former 153s, even better!

The weekend trains along the N Wales coast are getting busy now, we can all see the chaos on it way this summer. Using the a55 like some say won't help, as the congestion on that road in the summer is well known & there's always caravan based accidents.

The Marches too, I've never known anything like it.

I'm glad people like yourself that work in the industry actually understand what's going on & personally I'm glad TFW have worked with the heavily criticised by some posters traincrew unions to stop the use of local door operation during covid restrictions.

Thanks, and same to you!

I was unfortunate enough to catch Covid myself, and whilst I'm back at work now I'm still not at 100%. I'm all for whatever protection my employers deem necessary.

 

[geoffk]

Having used one of these trains from Colwyn Bay last Saturday - after the two hour gap in service mid early afternoon I can confirm that the 2 car train that did rock up was indeed carnage - rammed solid and people being left behind beyond Rhyl to Chester. Little evidence of any mask wearing either. Big flaw in the easing of the lockdown seems to be the continued limited train service that cellar isn't fit for purpose now.

Why is TfW still running a reduced service? Trains out of service, staff shortage or backlog of training? They must be expecting more holidaymakers heading for the coast with all the uncertainty about overseas travel.

 

[craigybagel]

Why is TfW still running a reduced service? Trains out of service, staff shortage or backlog of training? They must be expecting more holidaymakers heading for the coast with all the uncertainty about overseas travel.

Short answer - all 3.

They may well be expecting more passengers but there's very little that can be done about it right now.

 

[PHILIPE]

Why is TfW still running a reduced service? Trains out of service, staff shortage or backlog of training? They must be expecting more holidaymakers heading for the coast with all the uncertainty about overseas travel.

See Post #140.

 

[Jez]

Personally I hope the 175s or at least some of them stay with TFW long term rather than the 170s. It would make sense since every train depot aside from Cambrian and Cardiff Valleys (unless they are also trained for when they spend time in Canton depot?) are trained on 175s and the routes the 170s are supposed to eventually work (Pembrokeshire/HOW/Shrewsbury-Crewe stoppers) are all cleared for 175s. It would also make sense since TFW are putting a lot of effort into refurbishing their 175s which are looking great when completed. I realise this was a franchise commitment to do this but if they are going in a years time I would be surprised after all the time and money spent on them. They haven't to my knowledge done any such work on 170s and they were pretty much in TFW livery when they arrived.

I travelled 20 minute journey on the South Wales main line today. 175 in both directions. Surprised how busy it was but social distancing was still possible and wearing my mask as well I felt safe. However i was surprised there was such a good loading of passengers considering it was 3 car in both directions and particularly on the return journey considering it followed a GWR service 20 minutes earlier. A lot of passengers seemed to be heading back to West Wales however (after an afternoon in Cardiff now more things have opened up).

The average customer unfortunately doesnt understand the lack of carriages. They just see it as the train is far too short and should have an extra couple of carriages!

 

[Llandudno]

Agreed. Some full and standing trains the past three days despite the poor weather. If more units aren't forthcoming from somewhere it will be a disaster.

Be interesting next weekend as it’s bank holiday weekend and unbelievably there is good weather forecast..

oh and Chester Races on bank holiday Saturday with spectators allowed!

 

[paul1609]

When travel between Dublin and Holyhead is once again permitted, it'll be interesting to see the impact upon loadings - lots of bottled up demand from the Irish market, that's for sure!

Precovid Holyhead only had 260,000 total entries and exits in the ORR figures. That really supports my own personal experience that Sailrail traffic is pretty minimal tbh and that Holyhead is no longer a major traffic generator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Precovid Holyhead only had 260,000 total entries and exits in the ORR figures. That really supports my own personal experience that Sailrail traffic is pretty minimal tbh and that Holyhead is no longer a major traffic generator.

I would probably take the view that if Caernarfon is ever built it will be a lot busier than Holyhead and may make a better InterCity destination.

 

[Watershed]

Obviously TFW value their staffs health more than the other tocs that retained local door operations

I trust that the HSE and ORR are prosecuting all the other TOCs that kept local door operations then? Or are they in dereliction of their duty to keep the railways safe? Or is it perhaps possible that TfW have completely overreacted...

if covid wasn't that contagious why have we had lockdowns & business closures !

I'm not going to go into that one, but suffice to say that Covid cases, hospitalisations and deaths are a fraction of what they were at their peak. So even if it was justified to stop local door operation then, that justification simply doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't done for several months now. Yet TfW have not even said when they intend to review the situation.

Actually the stations effected on the N Wales coast by the covid restrictions have very low footfall.

If footfall is so low that they don't need to be served anymore, TfW have had every opportunity to begin the closure procedure over the last 15 months. I'm not holding my breath... In the mean time, they need to get back to serving them rather than inventing excuses.

So it made Sence to not stop, people forget traincrews have worked throughout all of the worldwide pandemic & many have been effected by contacting covid.
I know of staff with long covid & others that are still recovering many months later. Other TOCs have had depot outbreaks of covid & it's caused chaos in them locations.
Also trying to keep the 2 metres distance on a train is not easy & the conductors for TFW have yet go the equipment to check tickets, as they scan using a mobile phone.

Again, I have no idea what relevance this has to local door operations. Are you suggesting there is a correlation between TOCs continuing local door operations (all of them apart from TfW) and Covid case rates? If so, I'd love to see the data.

TFW have also utilised their RPI staff throughout the network & it's up to the passengers to purchase a ticket before boarding. This are never as simple as some people perceive & blaming the traincrew unions is not beneficial as it's there job to protect the members interests.

Yes, passenger should use facilities wherever possible. However, 1) not all stations have facilities, or the right facilities, and 2) what incentive is there for passengers to use the facilities if they know they're not going to be checked. I wouldn't be surprised if the non-barriered parts of TfW's network have been seen as a 'free railway' over the last 15 months.

Also Employing the threat of an independent investigation, the findings would be TFW have tried their best during an unprecedented worldwide pandemic that nobody could plan or forsee......

There hasn't been an independent investigation, so no-one can say. However, when every other TOC has managed to retain local door operations without any notable difficulties, that strongly suggests it's TfW that are in the wrong...

 

[krus_aragon]

There hasn't been an independent investigation, so no-one can say. However, when every other TOC has managed to retain local door operations without any notable difficulties, that strongly suggests it's TfW that are in the wrong...

There is also the fact that the Welsh Government didn't introduce a "1 metre+" social distancing rule; 2m is still a legal requirement here*. That may have been an influencing factor.

*Admittedly, many members of the public are more relaxed about this in shops etc than they were.

 

[Watershed]

There is also the fact that the Welsh Government didn't introduce a "1 metre+" social distancing rule; 2m is still a legal requirement here*. That may have been an influencing factor.

*Admittedly, many members of the public are more relaxed about this in shops etc than they were.

There isn't an absolute requirement to maintain 2m distancing, only to do so where reasonably practicable. If it's not reasonably practicable (e.g. it would mean effectively closing some stations), that just means you need to employ alternative measures to reduce the risk.

 

[Bikeman78]

There isn't an absolute requirement to maintain 2m distancing, only to do so where reasonably practicable. If it's not reasonably practicable (e.g. it would mean effectively closing some stations), that just means you need to employ alternative measures to reduce the risk.

If/when trains formed of 153s or 158s are full then the guard will have to get close to passengers to operate the doors anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If/when trains formed of 153s or 158s are full then the guard will have to get close to passengers to operate the doors anyway.

Unless they close their vestibule off to passengers.

 

[Bikeman78]

Unless they close their vestibule off to passengers.

That will do wonders for the dwell times. They don't seem to bother much with the Pacers any more.

 

[PHILIPE]

TFW do do what they can for occasions such as Chester Races today by strengthening the Chester to Crewe local from 2 Cars to 4 x 153s.

 

[markymark2000]

TFW do do what they can for occasions such as Chester Races today by strengthening the Chester to Crewe local from 2 Cars to 4 x 153s.

Was that due to the races or due to the Warrington line being down which saved 3 diagrams. And the fact the next quickest route is via Crewe, change into the South Wales service?

Mixture of reasons there, I wouldn't say it's all down to the races. Apparently a number of services were still full and standing this morning

 

[craigybagel]

Was that due to the races or due to the Warrington line being down which saved 3 diagrams. And the fact the next quickest route is via Crewe, change into the South Wales service?

Mixture of reasons there, I wouldn't say it's all down to the races. Apparently a number of services were still full and standing this morning

TfW always strengthen for Chester races whenever possible, regardless of what's happening on other lines.

 

[wobman]

It's looking like the first of the MK4 sets will be on the Holyhead to Cardiff services soon.
They are desperately needed along the N Wales coast, plus that can release units for other strengthening of services.

Let's hope more MK4 sets can be up & running asap, plus the proposed 170 & 158 transfers can happen.

This weekend has been very busy and things aren't improving with covid restrictions being lifted more and more.

 

[PHILIPE]

All day and every day at the moment and train after train bulging at the sides along the North Wales Coast and people being left behind at stations. The Marches route is similar. TFW Twitter fielding message after message from passengers relating to maskless people and lack of social distancing. TFW just have a standard cut and paste reply which does nothing to really answer the question in any detail. Before we try to find reasons for the present time, we really have to go back to ATWs no growth franchise award in 2003. TFW are saddled with this situation but are definitely making efforts by strengthening non-175 services along the coast where possible

 

[Dai Corner]

All day and every day at the moment and train after train bulging at the sides along the North Wales Coast and people being left behind at stations. The Marches route is similar. TFW Twitter fielding message after message from passengers relating to maskless people and lack of social distancing. TFW just have a standard cut and paste reply which does nothing to really answer the question in any detail. Before we try to find reasons for the present time, we really have to go back to ATWs no growth franchise award in 2003. TFW are saddled with this situation but are definitely making efforts by strengthening non-175 services along the coast where possible

Aren't the 175-operated services being strengthened using the units not currently on the Cardiff-Holyheads?

 

[craigybagel]

Aren't the 175-operated services being strengthened using the units not currently on the Cardiff-Holyheads?

As those services are still running North of Shrewsbury it doesn't buy you too many sets - especially when you take into account the fact one 3 car is away getting refurbished. In any case, platform lengths make it very difficult to run 175s in multiple on the Marches and between Chester and Shrewsbury.

 

[PHILIPE]

Aren't the 175-operated services being strengthened using the units not currently on the Cardiff-Holyheads?

Apparently not. They are running between Holyhead and Shrewsbury and return but without analysing them one by one and some modelling it is hard to determine how the down time is taken up but they are neither standing spare or strengthening

 

[Grumpus63]

It comes across as very hypocritical for TFW to display signs in every carriage "Cadw Pellter" and indicating 2 metres "Social Distancing" when they seem unable to provide a train service to cater for inevitable demand. Nobody is going to stop people cramming into an inadequate number of carriages for a coastal service and the warmth of inoperative or inadequate air-conditioning seems like an invitation for COVID to stalk the train carrying a scythe (if he can get through the assembled throngs packed like sardines within). Dark humour aside, although this is a discouragement for people to travel (as per "Is Your Journey Really Necessary?") the fact is that people WILL and the only bit of sanity in all this is that we are still required to wear masks on trains in Wales....very necessary probably in such circumstances.

Unfortunately Tf(for south)Wales have little idea of passenger flows in the north.
After a late afternoon 2 hour gap in the timetable and then send a 2 car set, when it’s patently obvious that is the most popular time for day trippers to return is ridiculous - wait until the summer!

It’s not fair for station or on board staff to have to handle the displeasure (and I fear abuse) of customers returning from the seaside many of which may have had a few drinks.

This is a very fair observation.

 

[craigybagel]

It comes across as very hypocritical for TFW to display signs in every carriage "Cadw Pellter" and indicating 2 metres "Social Distancing" when they seem unable to provide a train service to cater for inevitable demand.

And your proposed solution is?

Apparently not. They are running between Holyhead and Shrewsbury and return but without analysing them one by one and some modelling it is hard to determine how the down time is taken up but they are neither standing spare or strengthening

In theory, 3 sets would be saved. Easily swallowed up by the need to cover for sets away on refurb, the withdrawal of the North Wales loco hauled set, the extended turnarounds necessitated by some aspects of the Covid timetable, and so on.....

 

[Grumpus63]

And your proposed solution is?


In theory, 3 sets would be saved. Easily swallowed up by the need to cover for sets away on refurb, the withdrawal of the North Wales loco hauled set, the extended turnarounds necessitated by some aspects of the Covid timetable, and so on.....

Let us assume a worst case scenario and that a passenger died a contributory factor being that they suffered from the medical event due to "inadequate provision on the North Wales route at holiday time". What "solution" do you think would be found if the case went to court and TFW was found wanting? Would they find a way to improve matters then or would it be a case of pacifying the press with "lessons have been learned" and blaming the Westminster government (something that the Welsh administration would happily do while a Tory was in power, LOL). It is not my job to have a "proposed solution" but there could be a better explanation to the travelling public as to why their journey is likely to be or was a nightmare. Facts would be helpful and I have seen a number of useful and informative facts mentioned in this thread (from yourself included) which may help to explain to the rail user WHY their train is infrequent, short-formations etc. It may not resolve the issue but at least people could be made aware of potential shortcomings before forking out money for a journey that is likely to be a nightmare. It may also help the frontline rail staff who have to deal with this unenviable state of affairs. And if people know the facts they may be inclined to postpone the journey and return in the future when things are better instead of have a really bad experience and never return to rail usage.

 

[Eccles1983]

Let us assume a worst case scenario and that a passenger died a contributory factor being that they suffered from the medical event due to "inadequate provision on the North Wales route at holiday time". What "solution" do you think would be found if the case went to court and TFW was found wanting? Would they find a way to improve matters then or would it be a case of pacifying the press with "lessons have been learned" and blaming the Westminster government (something that the Welsh administration would happily do while a Tory was in power, LOL). It is not my job to have a "proposed solution" but there could be a better explanation to the travelling public as to why their journey is likely to be or was a nightmare. Facts would be helpful and I have seen a number of useful and informative facts mentioned in this thread (from yourself included) which may help to explain to the rail user WHY their train is infrequent, short-formations etc. It may not resolve the issue but at least people could be made aware of potential shortcomings before forking out money for a journey that is likely to be a nightmare. It may also help the frontline rail staff who have to deal with this unenviable state of affairs. And if people know the facts they may be inclined to postpone the journey and return in the future when things are better instead of have a really bad experience and never return to rail usage.

Easy.

No one from tfw forced them on the already busy train.

The person made that choice as a free person.

No court in the land would consider this case, as a short formed train does not in any way shape or form absolve the person from making a judgement about it.

It's simple, if it's rammed to the gills - dont travel. Wait for the next one.

It's grinding my gears people moaning about "social distancing" and yet they still get on making the social distancing worse.

People need to take responsibilty for themselves. It's the core message from the government.