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Overcrowding on North Wales Coast When The Sun Shines This Summer

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Caaardiff

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I'm still curious to know where people think TfW are hiding their trains.
If they were there, they would be in use.

If people are choosing to go on holiday or out for the day, in busy holiday parks, pubs and shopping centres, then I don't understand why travelling on a busy train is such a problem for them.
 
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Bletchleyite

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If people are choosing to go on holiday or out for the day, in busy holiday parks, pubs and shopping centres, then I don't understand why travelling on a busy train is such a problem for them.

A train with all seats taken is one thing. Full and standing is entirely another, and is something the railway needs to be aiming to get rid of except when there are truly exceptional flows like a major concert or sporting event tipping out (remember those?) or the absolute height of the morning peak.
 

wobman

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A train with all seats taken is one thing. Full and standing is entirely another, and is something the railway needs to be aiming to get rid of except when there are truly exceptional flows like a major concert or sporting event tipping out (remember those?) or the absolute height of the morning peak.
It takes time to get new rolling stock & TFW are trying very hard to strengthen their fleet, but they can't magic up extra trains.

I've seen trains full and standing already a few times this year, people choose to get on them & unfortunately this will be a common sight this summer for the travelling public.

Everybody wants to travel at peak times, a more measured approach could be used if people used more off peak trains for leisure journeys when possible. TFW just don't have any spare rolling stock.
 

craigybagel

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I'm still waiting for someone to post a magic solution, something TfW could be doing better.
 

Caaardiff

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A train with all seats taken is one thing. Full and standing is entirely another, and is something the railway needs to be aiming to get rid of except when there are truly exceptional flows like a major concert or sporting event tipping out (remember those?) or the absolute height of the morning peak.
I see you quoted the second part of my post. Whereas my reply to this is the same as the first part of my post.

Where do you propose they get the trains from?
It's taking time, but the new Franchise is all about changing that. It won't happen overnight.
 

Bletchleyite

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I see you quoted the second part of my post. Whereas my reply to this is the same as the first part of my post.

Where do you propose they get the trains from?
It's taking time, but the new Franchise is all about changing that. It won't happen overnight.

I'd suggest they can free some up by changing the service temporarily. For instance, Liverpool to Chester has only just started and can be suspended, plenty of room on Merseyrail. Bustitute the Conwy Valley, that frees up a 15x and barely degrades the service at all as running times are near identical by road and rail. There will be other places where it will be possible to bustitute to free up a unit, so the busiest, mainline services can be as long as possible.
 

markymark2000

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They don't have the staff to run a full service. It's been impossible to keep to with the usual amount of training owing to Covid, plus what staff are available are also having to undertake training on new stock and/or routes
They had staff before... If they are so short, why don't they recruit? They have recruited drivers and conductors within the past year or so

They had to remove the MKIIIs from service, they were not compliant with PRM regulations. They didn't have anything else to replace them with
Ok, that's fair but why replace them with trains less than 1/2 the size?

Have a look at the Valleys Timetables. There have been major cut backs. 50% reduction in many cases. Similarly the Cardiff - Swansea local service hasn't run all year and most Cheltenhams have been turned back short at Gloucester.

Fewer people traveling back then. Passenger numbers (until Covid) have been riding constantly but the fleet hasn't. Come back in s few years when there will be both a dramatic increase in the number of carriages and services those carriages operate.

See above, not enough staff because Covid
They have been recruiting since the start of Covid. Some of these people must be getting close to being trained now. (empesis on being 'close to being trained' as I know it takes a while to train up new staff). Also, if there is a staff shortage, do you want to know the best way to solve it, not introducing extra jobs for them like making almost all Chester - Manchester services shunt in Chester into the depot before coming back out again later for another trip. Overall 40 minutes shunting each hour at Chester. That was never done before. That's a good few drivers being taken up right there for a job which isn't needed and was never needed before. So many empty movements going on. I'm not surprised there is a staff shortage, half the drivers are shunting trains in and out of the depot all day.

Until a few months ago the TfW franchise was being run by a joint venture of Keolis and Amey, and whilst both these multinationals have their fingers in many pies neither have, to the best of my knowledge, staff members elected to the Senedd.
Yes and no. IT was being ran by Keolis and Amey but it was being ran like Merseytravel where these companies are simply there to take the blame if things go wrong. It was ran basically in full by the Welsh Govt as the puppetmaster.


All distance services are becoming very busy, but it's important to note that just because Manchester - Milford Haven trains may not be busy throughout, it doesn't mean other parts of of that route aren't. Manchester-Crewe, Hereford-Cardiff, Cardiff-Swansea to name a few are very busy routes at peak times, so a 3 car is required.
The key difference though is Manchester - Crewe (and Stockport & Wilmslow) have alternative trains on this section and so if something happens, you can quickly push people to use other operators. Cardiff - Swansea similarly has other services.
The North Wales Coast doesn't really have other trains. Avanti run a few trains per day so you can't really use them as capacity. 90% of the time, you don't even have another service from Chester - Manchester via the intermediate stops as Northern generally only seems to call at Warrington. This means that the majority of passengers have no alternative. In some of the cases which you mention, alternatives exist. Yes it may mean waiting for a larger train but if you have an hourly 9-11 car train and a hourly 2 car train, that is significantly more capacity than an hourly 2-4 car train (the North Wales - Shrewsbury and beyond service) and the hourly 2 car Manchester - North Wales service.

I travel.mid afternoon last Saturday from Lime Street to Frodsham, there were many people getting off the inbound service, I can only imagine this will just increase with more things opening up as of today.
The Halton Curve was really busy I found pre Lockdown. Not standing busy but considering it has just been set up, the numbers were very good from Helsby/Frodsham over to Liverpool. Certainly not numbers to be overlooked anyway. In comparison to some other lines which a

I'd suggest they can free some up by changing the service temporarily. For instance, Liverpool to Chester has only just started and can be suspended, plenty of room on Merseyrail. Bustitute the Conwy Valley, that frees up a 15x and barely degrades the service at all as running times are near identical by road and rail. There will be other places where it will be possible to bustitute to free up a unit, so the busiest, mainline services can be as long as possible.
Liverpool to Chester you can't just throw people onto Merseyrail. The route goes a completely different way. Helsby and Frodsham have a decent number of people who relied upon the service and numbers were quite decent. It also acted as a bit of a quieter train for passengers into Chester. Runcorn means passengers trekking to the other side of the town to get the train and for Helsby/Frodsham, this Liverpool train was the quieter one which wasn't overcrowded.


I'm still curious to know where people think TfW are hiding their trains.
If they were there, they would be in use.
It takes time to get new rolling stock & TFW are trying very hard to strengthen their fleet, but they can't magic up extra trains.
I've seen trains full and standing already a few times this year, people choose to get on them & unfortunately this will be a common sight this summer for the travelling public.
Everybody wants to travel at peak times, a more measured approach could be used if people used more off peak trains for leisure journeys when possible. TFW just don't have any spare rolling stock.
This isn't about hiding trains or magicing up some new ones that said, I would love to know how they have so few trains in North Wales. So few that they have to 1/2 the coast service and 1/2 on Liverpools (down 3 units). Plus 158s are running more singles than they were before (bit harder to work out numbers). Otherwise, it's about making proper use of the resources available, not having them sat around for an hour between trips.
How can a company which is introducing more trains as we speak, managing to lose trains. Is someone putting them on a hot wash by mistake, are they in the washing machine with all the socks people lose? It's nonsense. Bringing in more trains while not losing many (certainly bringing in more than they are losing) and yet capacity goes down? It doesn't add up at all.

Whatever is supposedly happening (I think some people here work for TFW and are trying to defend them), I have full faith that a proper franchisee would have sorted it in a very different way. However that may have been, I think they would have done it better. Northern managed it and they had a royal unit shortage and even they managed it thousands of times better than TFW are doing so.


(Purely as a disclaimer, this is no reflection on the station staff, drivers or guards at TFW. This is purely aimed at the people in TFW Head office)
 

Bletchleyite

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Liverpool to Chester you can't just throw people onto Merseyrail. The route goes a completely different way.

You absolutely can, and it did for many years, it's a new service, so "last in first out" to deal with what is basically an emergency situation.

Helsby and Frodsham have a decent number of people who relied upon the service and numbers were quite decent.

Helsby and Frodsham have the Manchester service and can change at Chester or Earlestown for Liverpool. Yes, it's much slower, but this is temporary.

It also acted as a bit of a quieter train for passengers into Chester. Runcorn means passengers trekking to the other side of the town to get the train and for Helsby/Frodsham, this Liverpool train was the quieter one which wasn't overcrowded.

If we're talking about people being left behind on the NWC which could be solved by temporary cessation of this service rather than just those services being a little busy, I can't think of a better answer to that than "diddums".

This isn't about hiding trains or magicing up some new ones that said, I would love to know how they have so few trains in North Wales. So few that they have to 1/2 the coast service and 1/2 on Liverpools (down 3 units). Plus 158s are running more singles than they were before (bit harder to work out numbers). Otherwise, it's about making proper use of the resources available, not having them sat around for an hour between trips.

Which services are "sat around for an hour between trips" and how long are those trips, i.e. is it necessary layover without which the service would be unpunctual?

How can a company which is introducing more trains as we speak, managing to lose trains.

Has the Pacer withdrawal escaped your notice?

Whatever is supposedly happening (I think some people here work for TFW and are trying to defend them), I have full faith that a proper franchisee would have sorted it in a very different way. However that may have been, I think they would have done it better. Northern managed it and they had a royal unit shortage and even they managed it thousands of times better than TFW are doing so.

Northern is in a right mess, and has just had a load of new units delivered, so even with some having defects they are still up.

There are simply no suitable units. They could perhaps get charter stock in but then you've got the window-hanging issue*. Beyond that what can they do but reshuffle their fleet?

* As this keeps coming up, can a charter operator please get some of their Mk1s and Mk2s fitted with window bars so they can be hired? It's really not a hard job; Southern fitted their whole slamdoor fleet in a very short period of time in the early 2000s.
 

frodshamfella

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You absolutely can, and it did for many years, it's a new service, so "last in first out" to deal with what is basically an emergency situation.



Helsby and Frodsham have the Manchester service and can change at Chester or Earlestown for Liverpool. Yes, it's much slower, but this is temporary.



If we're talking about people being left behind on the NWC which could be solved by temporary cessation of this service rather than just those services being a little busy, I can't think of a better answer to that than "diddums".



Which services are "sat around for an hour between trips" and how long are those trips, i.e. is it necessary layover without which the service would be unpunctual?



Has the Pacer withdrawal escaped your notice?



Northern is in a right mess, and has just had a load of new units delivered, so even with some having defects they are still up.

There are simply no suitable units. They could perhaps get charter stock in but then you've got the window-hanging issue*. Beyond that what can they do but reshuffle their fleet?

* As this keeps coming up, can a charter operator please get some of their Mk1s and Mk2s fitted with window bars so they can be hired? It's really not a hard job; Southern fitted their whole slamdoor fleet in a very short period of time in the early 2000s.

As someone who often uses Frodsham Station, I wouldn't go via Chester or Earlestown to reach Liverpool, it just takes far too long. I'd go to Acton Bridge as I used to before the curve opened. I am sure the NCRUG will be putting some pressure onto TFW to return the hourly service as soon as its feasible to do so, as its going to get busier if trends continue as they are.
 

Bletchleyite

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As someone who often uses Frodsham Station, I wouldn't go via Chester or Earlestown to reach Liverpool, it just takes far too long. I'd go to Acton Bridge as I used to before the curve opened. I am sure the NCRUG will be putting some pressure onto TFW to return the hourly service as soon as its feasible to do so, as its going to get busier if trends continue as they are.

It certainly needs to come back, but in the short term I think it would, alongside bustitution of some branch lines, be sensible to ensure that the Coast line can cope with a busy summer with the COVID anvil still balanced precariously above everything.

Would a bus service be useful there too? Perhaps it could be compensated by it being more frequent than the train?
 

sd0733

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Reducing services to 0 on routes isnt particularly the answer as it just stores up issues for the future when crew competency begins to lapse.

An easier way to save 1 unit would be to turn some Chester-Airports round at Oxford Road.

If dispensations could be agreed again, a quick win could potentially be to temporarily take on some more of the off-lease 153s and tag them on the back of a 158 up and down the coast. Pretty much everyone signs them and there are plenty about, it looks like that is already being done on a very small scale with a 153/9 now booked on the early Crewe to Holyhead and back to Chester.
 

Bletchleyite

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If 153s are available then yes, this would make sense provided they run with an accessible unit. Overcrowding is as much an issue for accessibility as a missing PIS.
 

Bikeman78

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I'm still waiting for someone to post a magic solution, something TfW could be doing better.
Keeping the Pacers is an obvious short term solution. If Greater Anglia can run non compliant 321s all over the place, what's the difference?
 

frodshamfella

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It certainly needs to come back, but in the short term I think it would, alongside bustitution of some branch lines, be sensible to ensure that the Coast line can cope with a busy summer with the COVID anvil still balanced precariously above everything.

Would a bus service be useful there too? Perhaps it could be compensated by it being more frequent than the train?

What really would make more sense is to run the thing from Lime Street to Llandudno or where ever its planned to get to now, This would bring more potential for the service and extra seats.
 

craigybagel

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I'd suggest they can free some up by changing the service temporarily. For instance, Liverpool to Chester has only just started and can be suspended, plenty of room on Merseyrail. Bustitute the Conwy Valley, that frees up a 15x and barely degrades the service at all as running times are near identical by road and rail. There will be other places where it will be possible to bustitute to free up a unit, so the busiest, mainline services can be as long as possible.
Interesting that you're suggesting cutting a line where previously you said:
Bit easier to make that choice when the next Tube is in 2 minutes than if you're stood at Betws y Coed with 1/3 tph, though.
That said, cutting the service on a heavily tourism dependant line in what promises to be the busiest domestic tourism season in years would I suspect not be a popular decision.

Which brings me back to the Peter and Paul point I made earlier. We can all make suggestions as to which lines need more of a service than others, but I doubt we'd reach agreement - and in any case someone's Hong to lose out one way or another.


They had staff before... If they are so short, why don't they recruit? They have recruited drivers and conductors within the past year or so
Indeed they have. However it's taking about twice as long to train staff up as it used to - but at the same time staff are still retiring, moving, going sick or taking annual leave at the same rate as before. Hence the shortages.

And that's before you add in the complications caused by training staff on 3 new fleets, and the fact that route learning is extremely difficult right now.

At my own depot, normally a driver can go from off the street to driving productively on Core routes in about 10 months - and with a full route card about 4 months after that. The last few drivers have taken nearly double that to pass out, and route learning has been almost impossible.
Ok, that's fair but why replace them with trains less than 1/2 the size?
Because that's all that they had available.
They have been recruiting since the start of Covid. Some of these people must be getting close to being trained now. (empesis on being 'close to being trained' as I know it takes a while to train up new staff).
See above.
Also, if there is a staff shortage, do you want to know the best way to solve it, not introducing extra jobs for them like making almost all Chester - Manchester services shunt in Chester into the depot before coming back out again later for another trip. Overall 40 minutes shunting each hour at Chester. That was never done before. That's a good few drivers being taken up right there for a job which isn't needed and was never needed before. So many empty movements going on. I'm not surprised there is a staff shortage, half the drivers are shunting trains in and out of the depot all day.
That would only take one driver to do, and in any case even before Covid there was already a driver booked to be in Chester during the day to do random shunts like this. As to the reason why - if you're running a reduced service but the trains paths through busy areas are fixed (like through Castlefield for the Manchester services) you end up with awkward disjointed timings like this.
Yes and no. IT was being ran by Keolis and Amey but it was being ran like Merseytravel where these companies are simply there to take the blame if things go wrong. It was ran basically in full by the Welsh Govt as the puppetmaster.
The Welsh Government may have been paying for it, but KA were in charge of the day to day running. In any case other then at the top level most management is the same as it was under Arriva.
The Halton Curve was really busy I found pre Lockdown. Not standing busy but considering it has just been set up, the numbers were very good from Helsby/Frodsham over to Liverpool. Certainly not numbers to be overlooked anyway. In comparison to some other lines which a


Liverpool to Chester you can't just throw people onto Merseyrail. The route goes a completely different way. Helsby and Frodsham have a decent number of people who relied upon the service and numbers were quite decent. It also acted as a bit of a quieter train for passengers into Chester. Runcorn means passengers trekking to the other side of the town to get the train and for Helsby/Frodsham, this Liverpool train was the quieter one which wasn't overcrowded.
See my point above. I'm not going to advocate for one line being cut over another because whichever one you choose people will complain. I do agree though that with us likely to see a large amount of people traveling from Liverpool to North Wales this summer dumping them all on Merseyrail may not be as simple as it sounds.
This isn't about hiding trains or magicing up some new ones that said, I would love to know how they have so few trains in North Wales. So few that they have to 1/2 the coast service and 1/2 on Liverpools (down 3 units). Plus 158s are running more singles than they were before (bit harder to work out numbers). Otherwise, it's about making proper use of the resources available, not having them sat around for an hour between trips.
How can a company which is introducing more trains as we speak, managing to lose trains. Is someone putting them on a hot wash by mistake, are they in the washing machine with all the socks people lose? It's nonsense. Bringing in more trains while not losing many (certainly bringing in more than they are losing) and yet capacity goes down? It doesn't add up at all.
As others have pointed out, the company is down 8 MKIIIs and most (soon to be all) of the Pacers. That's a sizable hole that needs filling - and unfortunately (and through no fault of TFW) the replacements are running late.
Whatever is supposedly happening (I think some people here work for TFW and are trying to defend them), I have full faith that a proper franchisee would have sorted it in a very different way. However that may have been, I think they would have done it better. Northern managed it and they had a royal unit shortage and even they managed it thousands of times better than TFW are doing so.
And I have full faith that there is no obvious cure and that with the same fundamental issues, and TOC, be they "proper" or not, would have struggled.

Keeping the Pacers is an obvious short term solution. If Greater Anglia can run non compliant 321s all over the place, what's the difference?
Now that is a very good question.
 

Bletchleyite

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What really would make more sense is to run the thing from Lime Street to Llandudno or where ever its planned to get to now, This would bring more potential for the service and extra seats.

With what units?

Really they need to trim to running adequate capacity on the core and buses on other stuff until the 197s start to arrive. Just putting single 2-car sets out on everything is not going to work.

Interesting that you're suggesting cutting a line where previously you said:

That said, cutting the service on a heavily tourism dependant line in what promises to be the busiest domestic tourism season in years would I suspect not be a popular decision.

I'm suggesting replacing it (the Conwy Valley) with a bus service to release the unit for the mainline, not removing it entirely. That bus could be more frequent in compensation, perhaps.

They will have to up capacity with the COVID axe still hanging over us, and the only suitable capacity presently for hire other than a few 153s is buses. The only other option is compulsory reservation.
 

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With what units?

Really they need to trim to running adequate capacity on the core and buses on other stuff until the 197s start to arrive. Just putting single 2-car sets out on everything is not going to work.



I'm suggesting replacing it (the Conwy Valley) with a bus service to release the unit for the mainline, not removing it entirely. That bus could be more frequent in compensation, perhaps.

They will have to up capacity with the COVID axe still hanging over us, and the only suitable capacity presently for hire other than a few 153s is buses. The only other option is compulsory reservation.

If people wanted to travel by bus or train they would have a choice. If they plan to travel by train, they should expect a train to turn up.
 

Bletchleyite

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If people wanted to travel by bus or train they would have a choice. If they plan to travel by train, they should expect a train to turn up.

That's all very well, but TfW don't have enough of them. What do you propose they do?

I'd rather a bus than a full-and-standing train, particularly with COVID still knocking around.

They could run shadow buses on the mainlines, but it's much more efficient to run the buses on the branch lines.
 

Jez

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To be fair if they are running a reduced service on many lines - e.g. many valley lines and Cardiff local services are half the amount, 1 less unit for the Cambrian, Liverpool-Chester 1 train per 2 hours so that's another unit spare, Cardiff-North Wales starting at Shrewsbury so that must also save at least 2 units. Swanline is also incorporated into the Manchester services most of the day so again that must free up at least antoher unit. Id expect at least some services to have extra capacity with the trains that would usually provide a full service. Ive seen most Cardiff-Manchester services are still just 3 cars or even 2 cars on occasions. This is simply not good enough if people need to social distance. What is the procedure if too many people want to board a service to maintain social distancing requirement are they made to wait for the next train or is it up to the person whether they want to get on.

Also swanline is being incorporated into the Manchester service off peak which means a 2 or 3 carriage 175 picking up these extra stops as well as everywhere else so in a way its less capacity overall for this leg of the journey.
 

frodshamfella

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With what units?

Really they need to trim to running adequate capacity on the core and buses on other stuff until the 197s start to arrive. Just putting single 2-car sets out on everything is not going to work.



I'm suggesting replacing it (the Conwy Valley) with a bus service to release the unit for the mainline, not removing it entirely. That bus could be more frequent in compensation, perhaps.

They will have to up capacity with the COVID axe still hanging over us, and the only suitable capacity presently for hire other than a few 153s is buses. The only other option is compulsory reservation.

I don't know anything about units available etc, I'm not an expert just an interested passenger. I just know this service is meant to be heading into Wales and until it does its not obtaining its full potential . What does the unit do, when it arrives in Chester in between Liverpool runs ?
 

berneyarms

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To be fair if they are running a reduced service on many lines - e.g. many valley lines and Cardiff local services are half the amount, 1 less unit for the Cambrian, Liverpool-Chester 1 train per 2 hours so that's another unit spare, Cardiff-North Wales starting at Shrewsbury so that must also save at least 2 units. Swanline is also incorporated into the Manchester services most of the day so again that must free up at least antoher unit. Id expect at least some services to have extra capacity with the trains that would usually provide a full service. Ive seen most Cardiff-Manchester services are still just 3 cars or even 2 cars on occasions. This is simply not good enough if people need to social distance. What is the procedure if too many people want to board a service to maintain social distancing requirement are they made to wait for the next train or is it up to the person whether they want to get on.

Also swanline is being incorporated into the Manchester service off peak which means a 2 or 3 carriage 175 picking up these extra stops as well as everywhere else so in a way its less capacity overall for this leg of the journey.
You also have the ongoing refurbishments of Class 150 and Class 175 sets to factor into the equation - there's one less 3 car Class 175 and one less Class 150 available because of that.

I don't know anything about units available etc, I'm not an expert just an interested passenger. I just know this service is meant to be heading into Wales and until it does its not obtaining its full potential . What does the unit do, when it arrives in Chester in between Liverpool runs ?
It arrives into Chester and returns to Liverpool within 5-10 minutes of arriving.

It is basically shuttling back and forth all day long.

The extension into North Wales isn't due to happen until the Class 197 sets are well into service.
 

sd0733

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I don't know anything about units available etc, I'm not an expert just an interested passenger. I just know this service is meant to be heading into Wales and until it does its not obtaining its full potential . What does the unit do, when it arrives in Chester in between Liverpool runs ?
It has a very short turnaround on many of the Liverpools, sometimes 3 or 4 mins is the booked turnaround
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't know anything about units available etc, I'm not an expert just an interested passenger. I just know this service is meant to be heading into Wales and until it does its not obtaining its full potential . What does the unit do, when it arrives in Chester in between Liverpool runs ?

Go back again!
 

frodshamfella

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It has a very short turnaround on many of the Liverpools, sometimes 3 or 4 mins is the booked turnaround

Ok, thanks for letting me know.

I think replacing Chester- Runcorn - Liverpool by bus is not a great idea. I don't imagine the take up would be great, plus after such a long wait for a regular through service, the last thing you want is to put passengers off with a bus replacement.
 
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Caaardiff

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I'm suggesting replacing it (the Conwy Valley) with a bus service to release the unit for the mainline, not removing it entirely. That bus could be more frequent in compensation, perhaps.

They will have to up capacity with the COVID axe still hanging over us, and the only suitable capacity presently for hire other than a few 153s is buses. The only other option is compulsory reservation.
So you want to replace a train that can seat about 120 and carry many more with standing room to be replaced by a bus, which under covid restrictions can probably carry about 20 people?

And i can pretty much guarantee you that if the Conwy line was pulled, that 150 would go to the Cardiff Valleys, where it's needed.

They could run shadow buses on the mainlines, but it's much more efficient to run the buses on the branch lines.
Bus capacity is provided at bigger stations for overcrowding situations of trains.
To be fair if they are running a reduced service on many lines - e.g. many valley lines and Cardiff local services are half the amount, 1 less unit for the Cambrian, Liverpool-Chester 1 train per 2 hours so that's another unit spare, Cardiff-North Wales starting at Shrewsbury so that must also save at least 2 units. Swanline is also incorporated into the Manchester services most of the day so again that must free up at least antoher unit. Id expect at least some services to have extra capacity with the trains that would usually provide a full service. Ive seen most Cardiff-Manchester services are still just 3 cars or even 2 cars on occasions. This is simply not good enough if people need to social distance. What is the procedure if too many people want to board a service to maintain social distancing requirement are they made to wait for the next train or is it up to the person whether they want to get on.

Also swanline is being incorporated into the Manchester service off peak which means a 2 or 3 carriage 175 picking up these extra stops as well as everywhere else so in a way its less capacity overall for this leg of the journey.

15 Pacers have already gone and 15 more are due to go shortly. The 3x Mk3's have also gone with the Mk4's not yet in service. So even with all the cut backs and the odd 769 actually being in service there is still a shortage. In terms of carriages that 30 carriages for the Pacers that have already gone, which means 8 769's need to be fully in service to cover those, which is far from happening currently. The current timetable only has I think 5 or 6 diagrammed. Throw in the 2-3 175's needed to cover the Mk3s.
There's a 150, 158 and 175 out long term for refurbishment along with an ageing fleet that needs constant and regular maintenance.

Quite frankly i'm losing track of this thread. People seem to be suggesting that TfW CUT routes completely just to provide capacity on one specific route that see's the occasional full and standing. It's being made out to be a national crisis when in fact it's not happening that often, and there are contingencies in place should it start to happen more. If people want to travel they will, and should accept the fact that trains will be busy. It is practically impossible to gauge how many will travel on services and to provide enough capacity to give everyone a seat, nevermind maintain social distancing. This thread has become completely over dramatic.
 

Bletchleyite

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So you want to replace a train that can seat about 120 and carry many more with standing room to be replaced by a bus, which under covid restrictions can probably carry about 20 people?

There's only one bus available for hire in the whole country?

Anyway, when was the last time you saw the Conwy Valley unit with more than about that number on it?

And i can pretty much guarantee you that if the Conwy line was pulled, that 150 would go to the Cardiff Valleys, where it's needed.

If the Valleys are leaving people behind then that might be sensible too.

Quite frankly i'm losing track of this thread. People seem to be suggesting that TfW CUT routes completely just to provide capacity on one specific route that see's the occasional full and standing. It's being made out to be a national crisis when in fact it's not happening that often, and there are contingencies in place should it start to happen more. If people want to travel they will, and should accept the fact that trains will be busy. It is practically impossible to gauge how many will travel on services and to provide enough capacity to give everyone a seat, nevermind maintain social distancing. This thread has become completely over dramatic.

If you don't understand that this summer is rather different from the norm, then I think you're missing a trick.
 

craigybagel

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Quite frankly i'm losing track of this thread. People seem to be suggesting that TfW CUT routes completely just to provide capacity on one specific route that see's the occasional full and standing. It's being made out to be a national crisis when in fact it's not happening that often, and there are contingencies in place should it start to happen more. If people want to travel they will, and should accept the fact that trains will be busy. It is practically impossible to gauge how many will travel on services and to provide enough capacity to give everyone a seat, nevermind maintain social distancing. This thread has become completely over dramatic.
Well put. The only bit I'd argue with is the suggestion that this thread is only now becoming over dramatic and wasn't that way from the start :lol:

There's only one bus available for hire in the whole country?

Anyway, when was the last time you saw the Conwy Valley unit with more than about that number on it?
In summer?
If you don't understand that this summer is rather different from the norm, then I think you're missing a trick.
Which is why I find your suggestion of the Conwy Valley line for possible bustitution so strange. I accept your point that there isn't much difference in travel times by road or rail - and for the rest of the year I'd entirely agree with you.

But if you replace this particular train with buses, you won't actually need that many buses to replace it - because most people simply won't travel at all. It is the most tourist centred railway on the TfW network, and it's summer passengers aren't the kind likely to opt for a bus.

Of course, this is potentially a good thing for the network in terms of keeping passengers at a more manageable level, but for the tourism industries along the line who've already suffered over the past few years, it could be a disaster.

I appreciate I'm falling victim to that point I've made so many times, that whatever line you suggest to cut is going cause people to argue, but at the same time I do feel I need to argue the case for the Conwy Valley here. That 150 (or 2 153s) will do much more for the Welsh economy as a whole on that branch then by giving a bit of extra space for the bucket and spade brigade on other lines.
 

47827

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The Ffestiniog Railway, a big part of tourism in that corner (if trains do return the full length), will also lose a few more much needed users across the day if people need to catch a bus vice train to arrive from the north end. It used to be a popular train combination with a scenic branch train to meet the scenic little steam train.

I would say the only other thing to explore would be the government speaking to Avanti WC while the London service is watered down and conveying fewer business travellers and redoing their Crewe shuttle timetable to make voyager utilisation somewhat better (i.e making the gaps smaller in Wales). With service reduction south of Crewe its not impossible to contemplate slightly more Crewe to Bangor/Holyhead turns. Especially so if not all of the trains had to go through to Anglesey. At present some of the voyagers sit in Crewe most of the day or for hours on end. For various reasons I could list if I wanted to waste more time, that probably won't happen so TFW and Avanti encouraging use of the voyagers for those who can would be sensible.
 

berneyarms

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Presumably Avanti also have crewing issues which is resulting in their reduced timetables until September.
 
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