Overground/Crossrail takeover of Greater Anglia inners

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by 387star, 1 May 2015.

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  1. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Someone posted in I think this thread, or another one, that Greater Anglia had a number of defects that were "hidden" by running cabs semi-permanently coupled into the middle of trains and so on.
     
  2. george.h

    george.h Member

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    What I want to know is this....

    When Cross Rail finally take over from TFL Rail, will they get someone in who has some knowledge of geography? It seems TFL Rail STILL can't accept that Brentwood both exists and IS NOT in London....

    A minor point perhaps, but it does DOUBLE the number of stations on the TFL Rail line not in London....
     
    Last edited: 9 Jun 2015
  3. JaJaWa

    JaJaWa Established Member

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    What is the problem with Brentwood?

    MTR Crossrail is currently branded as TfL Rail. When the new trains arrive and the tunnel opens, they will be branded as Crossrail. No one is taking over.
     
  4. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    Well when crossrail launches there will be a number of stations outside London.
     
  5. ModernRailways

    ModernRailways Established Member

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    My thoughts exactly and whilst there may have been actual technical problems, for them to all suddenly surface after TfL takeover must be a very good coincidence. Either that, or TfL have found problems and want them fixed so in the long term the fleet is more reliable, whilst in the short term it means more delays, short-forms, and cancellations.
     
  6. george.h

    george.h Member

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    The initial wording in the "About TFL Rail" website page said something like (can't remember the exact wording) "one station, Shenfield, is outside of London". Last time I looked (Monday) Brentwood was still there between Harold Wood and Shenfield, is outside of the M25 and most definitely NOT a Greater London borough.

    They've changed the wording now but it still effectively implies the same thing - that there is one station on the TFL Rail route outside of London, Shenfield.
     
  7. JaJaWa

    JaJaWa Established Member

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    Shenfield is the only station outside the London Travelcard zones. If I were you I'd be thankful for them moving Brentwood into a zone rather than moaning they should recognise that it's outside London...
     
  8. george.h

    george.h Member

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    Luckily I live in Chelmsford LOL...
     
  9. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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    London Overground are now tweeting short coach formations on the WA services.
     
  10. chubs

    chubs Member

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    Are the 317's that transferred over all being used at maximum capacity too then?

    I thought someone suggested they were less intensively diagrammed, if so could they not cover for some short formed 315's?
     
  11. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    Although two of the trains they have mentioned don't actually exist!

    There is no 1545 to Chingford, do they mean 1545 to Cheshunt or 1548 to Chingford?

    Similarly there is no 1715 to Cheshunt, do they mean 1715 to Enfield Town or 1722 to Cheshunt?
     
  12. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Crossrail will not be taking over from TfL Rail. The current operator of services branded TfL Rail is MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Limited, who will also be the operator of services branded Crossrail.
     
  13. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    In a better world, in the lead up to the changes:
    the 317/7s would have had a serious overhaul into a "final" version for AGA Cambridge services. Personal preference- retraction, aircon, power sockets, wifi, 379 seats (and similar layout) with new loos and new gangway doors.
    They'd have been introduced into traffic, allowing a rolling programme to start. The 317/5s would have had a basic refurb into a 315-ish spec- first class removed, the loos removed (the old ones are horrible and often don't work, the 315s do OK without them), giving LO their fleet. The /8 and then /6 fleet would then have been given the same treatment as the /7s, with this all concluding for the 31st of May. Meanwhile TfL would have helped invest to fix up the 315 fleet to get them ready for LO & TfL Rail.

    Dreams eh?
     
  14. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    I think the problem was that greater Anglia Pooled their fleet and ran faulty stock as passenger carriages rather than driving units. Greater Anglia then perhaps passed their lower performing stock onto lo and Tfl rail.

    The soloution is though. Run both Tfl rail and LO in LO livery and pool the stock.
     
  15. 450.emu

    450.emu Member

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    Hmmm... GA, flogging them the worst kit and keeping the slightly better for themselves... something similar happened to my company when we took over the IT of a department store... the outgoing contractors set all the tills to US voltage at 110v so half the tills power supplies blew up... and majority of the spares were mysteriously dead :roll:

    Hopefully the driving cab issues can be sorted out as well, presentation wise the customers must see quite a difference compared to the mess of before. At least the 315's are getting some TLC at last... :)
     
    Last edited: 9 Jun 2015
  16. class303

    class303 Member

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    is there a guide to the different type of 317s? /8s /7s /6s? what's the difference?
     
  17. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    If GA did give the worst pieces of kit to LOROL and MTR and I stress if the dft need to get involved as it makes a mockery of the franchise process.
     
  18. slick

    slick Member

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    Take it from a driver who drives them. There came a point where as a driver writing up fault reports was nothing more than a handwriting practice exercise. All that you would get in reply from fleet was "aware" or "awaiting parts" We had 317s with passenger information un-serviceable or used to announce in reverse for years on end. Trains with dud electronics packs running around, units on half power kept as 8 cars to disguise issues. 315s with faulty TPWS racks defective radios which were left rotting and dispatched onto the Liv St - Shenfields burried in middle cabs for as long as I've been working because nobody wanted to pay for them to be repaired. Then suddenly on the 31st may LOROL are given a small number of these units which all couple and uncouple at some point during the day exposing all of the dark secrets left by AGA. Theres no get out of jail cards no unit swaps and no "burying" of cabs.

    So they end up back in ilford because they arent fit for service, getting a thorough looking over ironically enough by GA fitters who will continue to maintain the LOROL/TFL fleet. The difference this time? LOROL are paying for the parts.

    Ive driven the same trains for one, nx, ga and now lorol and I can tell you that the units that have emerged after a lorol dressing down are almost like new trains. I know its not much of a consolation to passengers, and shortforms are a pain in the proverbial, but the state they were in underneath was unbelievable, dont be fooled by the GA shiny white repaint with red doors, they may aswell not have bothered.

    If they (lorol) continue to service the fleet the way they have been and contiune the internal refreshes the short forms I'm sure will calm down considerably.

    My one gripe at the moment though with the short formations is the new line controllers dont appear to be choosing the unit diagrams very well meaning that some of the units are being pulled from extremely busy trains, while other services that are moderately busy are remaining 8cars. Im hoping that in time they will learn how to do things over here, as bad as GA were their line controllers were expert at juggling dead/faulty units around the service and keeping delays down to a minimum and they knew the service very well. Lets hope in time the lorol have that same "cosiness" because at the moment you still get the impression its still a learning curve which is leaving most evening peaks looking a complete shambles.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jun 2015
  19. Be3G

    Be3G Established Member

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    An interesting perspective, thanks slick. As a local to what was until a week and a half ago two GA lines, I've certainly always had the impression that their level of train maintenance was minimal as train failures seemed to be the most oft-cited reason for inevitable cancellations. (In fact I was a passenger on a train that failed once, although I suppose if you travel by train enough it's likely enough to happen to anyone eventually.) So if nothing else, it's good to know that I wasn't imagining things!
     
  20. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    I am surprised as part of the franchise transfer that there is not an inventory done on the conditions of the rolling stock with agreements that the previous franchisee pay for damage or lack of maintanence during their ownership.
     
  21. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    Wonder how many Brentwood passengers are going for the cheaper TFL Rail fare and sticking out on a Metro service all the way to London Liverpool St as they cannot go to Shenfield on those tickets.
     
  22. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    Touch in on oyster at brentwood and touch out at liverpool street and the system has no way of telling whether you got the fast service via shenfield or the slow all stations service.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2015
  23. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    /5: the original spec /1s renumbered. 3+2 seating in standard, 2+2 in 1st in an intermediate coach. Retain the old "parcels" section at one end with longitudinal seating.
    /6: what were the /2s, given a major refurb. 2+2 seating (other than under the pantograph), 1st class at one end, no parcels section, wheelchair/cycle bay near the loos but old style loos.
    /7: the "proper" Stansted Express conversions. Some form of air conditioning (ropey), 2+2 seating with proper tables, an accessible loo, 2+1 1st class at one end. Lugage racks. Docking bays for catering trolleys
    /8: the "budget" Stansted Express conversions. /5s with some seats removed for luggage racks.
     
  24. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I think there usually is a procedure between the outgoing TOC and the ROSCO, but the arrangements wouldn't normally be made public.
     
  25. george.h

    george.h Member

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    Ah... The "Commercial Confidentiality" used to hide all manner of evils under privatisation of formerly publicly owned services.

    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    I've no idea if Oyster systems are able to do this or not, and if they are if any use is made of it, but wouldn't the difference touch-in/touch-out times give the game away? Brentwood to Liverpool St something like 47 mins. Brentwood to Shendfield then Liverpool St (AGA lines) 20 mins('ish).

    For the arguably small difference in fare would it even be worth checking? Probably not..
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2015
  26. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Another TfL board paper (primarily about upgrades to existing stations) has been published and now explicitly states that Crossrail branding will commence when the 345s enter service on the Shenfield to Liverpool St high level branch:

    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    Any PAYG journey has a defined time limit (based on zones passed through) but they provide a much higher margin than you'd probably expect, around an hour or more being typical; so are useless for this sort of real time checking of route taken. MikeWh (who posts here) has all the info on his site as usual: http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/maximum-journey-times/
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2015
  27. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    The 'arrangement' is that stock to be in similar condition to when the TOC started expect for wear and tear. ROSCOs inspect all stock prior to handover.
     
  28. class303

    class303 Member

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    thanks. very informative
     
  29. Dave1987

    Dave1987 Established Member

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    I'm fairly certain that you would be penalty fared if caught though as its no longer valid via that route.
     
  30. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    If an RPI got on your train, You have touched in so it would be valid and when you get off at liverpool street you have touched out,Infact you would have a valid ticket for the entire journey.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2015
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