• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Overhanging train

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
Mrs O is currently sat on a train on Platform 3 at Leeds station, already 15 minutes late, and the driver has just announced it cannot depart because there is another train overhanging the end of platform 4 by two coaches. This sounds to me like a somewhat embarrassing cock-up, and I wondered how it would have happened. Or is it "just one of those things", to be met with a shrug of the shoulders?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Adam0984

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2014
Messages
1,072
Basically the route is set automatically so for example a 333 is booked and automatically put in platform 3 on top of what should be a 2 car 144 but today it happens to be a 3 car 158 so hangs off the end of the platform and blocks the track circuits until it's moved. That's it in a nutshell
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
Basically the route is set automatically so for example a 333 is booked and automatically put in platform 3 on top of what should be a 2 car 144 but today it happens to be a 3 car 158 so hangs off the end of the platform and blocks the track circuits until it's moved. That's it in a nutshell
That's what I imagined. But it doesn't increase confidence in the safety aspects of the signalling, if it is allowed to make assumptions about the types of train involved.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,098
Location
Somewhere, not in London
And to add to it, there's usually a lock (if it's in the overlap) that means moving it out of the platform requires a lot of paperwork and radio conversations.

That's what I imagined. But it doesn't increase confidence in the safety aspects of the signalling, if it is allowed to make assumptions about the types of train involved.

Also, ARS is not anywhere near the safety critical locking of signals, the safety side of older SSIs has no idea how long a train is, just where the axles are on it.
 
Last edited:

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,864
Location
Airedale
That's what I imagined. But it doesn't increase confidence in the safety aspects of the signalling, if it is allowed to make assumptions about the types of train involved.

But it's not unsafe, just very inconvenient. :)
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,817
Location
Yorks
3 and 4 are both quite stubby little platforms in comparison to the others nearby. Time for a platform 0 ?
 

ilkestonian

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2009
Messages
382
Location
The Potteries
That's what I imagined. But it doesn't increase confidence in the safety aspects of the signalling, if it is allowed to make assumptions about the types of train involved.

In what way do you feel safety has been compromised?

If the signals had allowed your wife's train to depart, I could understand your concern, but it appears from what you said that the signals worked as expected...
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
That's what I imagined. But it doesn't increase confidence in the safety aspects of the signalling, if it is allowed to make assumptions about the types of train involved.

The assumptions it makes can never be unsafe. This is demonstrated by your train's inability to depart.
 

Zoidberg

Established Member
Joined
27 Aug 2010
Messages
1,270
Location
West Midlands
What a lot of defensive posts.

The issue is, surely, about the incompetence that allowed the situation to arise.
 

dysonsphere

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2013
Messages
518
What a lot of defensive posts.

The issue is, surely, about the incompetence that allowed the situation to arise.

Its is more I guess more of a lack of human interface due to central signalling centers. As in and Im guessing here no way for the driver to tell signaller "I need a longer platform", in a quick manner.
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
What a lot of defensive posts.

The issue is, surely, about the incompetence that allowed the situation to arise.

Maybe the reason people are getting defensive is because other people are posting assumptions as if they were facts, just like you with your 'incompetence' line! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its is more I guess more of a lack of human interface due to central signalling centers. As in and Im guessing here no way for the driver to tell signaller "I need a longer platform", in a quick manner.

In cases like this where the driver has got a calling on signal, they wont know how much platform they have got available until they roll in!


Not aimed at you-
But hey, what do I know, I just drive trains for a living, I am sure some armchair warrior with Wikipedia to hand knows a lot more than me about stuff like this! :roll:
 

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
Its is more I guess more of a lack of human interface due to central signalling centers. As in and Im guessing here no way for the driver to tell signaller "I need a longer platform", in a quick manner.


What?

It has nothing to do with centralised signalling centres. The train was probably formed of more coaches than normal/than published in TRUST which the signaller should of been told about.

Also, if the signaller didn't know the train was longer, then ARS didn't either. So it's nothing to do with incompetence. The driver could of realised what was happening sooner (depends on how operations run at this station!) IE if the driver knew he was 'normally' dropped onto a 2 car unit whilst in a 2 car, and the platform is 4 car unit, then a 3 car wouldn't fit :lol:, well if he got a calling on signal, unless 1 car trains operate then he would always be too long? Providing what someone said earlier is true about the units. I don't know Leeds so can't comment


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

Zoidberg

Established Member
Joined
27 Aug 2010
Messages
1,270
Location
West Midlands
Maybe the reason people are getting defensive is because other people are posting assumptions as if they were facts, just like you with your 'incompetence' line! :roll:

Oh, come on. It cannot be described as a competent way to operate when it is arranged for one train trap another in a platform.
 

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
Oh, come on. It cannot be described as a competent way to operate when it is arranged for one train trap another in a platform.


No one doing the operating on the ground is incompetent, unless the signaller knew that it was longer than normal, or the driver could of worked out he was too long by getting a calling on signal. I don't know leeds station so cannot comment.
 
Last edited:

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,855
Location
Huyton
Oh, come on. It cannot be described as a competent way to operate when it is arranged for one train trap another in a platform.


I'm sure the signaller and driver are both very sorry for their psychic ability to determine the lengths of trains that they cannot see being on the blink this evening.

:roll:
 

carriageline

Established Member
Joined
11 Jan 2012
Messages
1,897
I'm sure the signaller and driver are both very sorry for their psychic ability to determine the lengths of trains that they cannot see being on the blink this evening.

:roll:


I would be worried if the driver couldn't determine the length of the train he's driving :lol: [emoji23]




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

alexl92

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2014
Messages
2,268
3 and 4 are both quite stubby little platforms in comparison to the others nearby. Time for a platform 0 ?

Apparently there are plans to expand into the car park next to Plat 1 at some point in the relatively near future, to create more bays.

I don't see how the driver could be expected to alert the signaller to a potential issue - depending on what angle he arrives from, he may not be able to tell that the 144 or 158 in front is a 3-car rather than a 2-car until he's close enough to read the unit number, which is probably too close to do anything about it.

Surely there should be some way for the system to know how many coaches are on a given service at least? Not criticising, just surprised.
 

Oswyntail

Established Member
Joined
23 May 2009
Messages
4,183
Location
Yorkshire
...Surely there should be some way for the system to know how many coaches are on a given service at least? Not criticising, just surprised.
That was my thought, really, and in my mind when I mentioned safety, earlier (in particular, recording how many vehicles are in a terminus platform already). A driver approaches the platform believing there to be fewer coaches on it than there actually are, trusting the system, and has to rapidly readjust. I realise all drivers are as competent as 455, but such readjusting circumstances are exactly the situations where accidents occur.
 
Last edited:

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,825
There's no way for the driver to know how many vehicles are in an occupied platform, only that it's occupied. The calling-on indication authorises him to proceed only as far as the line is clear, driving accordingly and certainly not making any assumptions about how many vehicles are already there. The collision at Norwich is the only one involving a move into an occupied platform that I can recall in recent history, and even there (although the combination was slightly too long for the physical length of the platform, it fitted from a signalling point of view) I don't think there was any assumption on the driver's part, just a loss of concentration.

Does the ARS at Leeds allow calling-on routes to be set automatically? In some installations, it waits for them to be set manually instead, presumably at least partially for this very reason. In this case, with the suggestion of a set swap, the ARS would probably need to be overridden anyway. That won't make much difference, though, if the signalman's unaware of the changes to the plan and doesn't know that the second train is longer than booked, if indeed that was the case here!
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,397
Location
UK
For the non industry people.

Interlocking : A safety system in which something must happen before something else does. eg. The points must clear before the signal comes off. The signal will not clear if the points are conflicting or if the various other safety measures are in place to prove the points are set.

Signalling : 1 Train in 1 section at any one time.

Permissive Working : More than one train in a section.


The whole system is designed to protect trains from conflicting moves and maintain the integrity of the rail network. Even when permissive working is taking place the safety is never compromised. The subsidiary means that you proceed at caution. At no point does it determine anything about train lengths or traction types. Its not important. Safety is maintained by the basic principles of driving a train.

A Driver can, at any time, challenge the calling on. Some Drivers will challenge due to changes or any unusual situation but where permissive working is expected why would you challenge it ?
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
One of the few times I questioned a calling on signal (into P1 at Guidford) was because my train had 8 coaches, platform 1 will only take 8 coaches so regardless of what ever was in there meant my train wouldnt fit. When I questioned it the siggy (after hitting a keyboard a few times) informed me that my train was formed of 4 coaches and would therefore fit, I again informed him that it was 8 coaches (and gave him the unit numbers) and it had been incorrectly sent out of the depot as an 8 instead of a 4 meaning TRUST was wrong, the siggy correctly working to the carriage workings had tried to put my train on top of another one.

All those going on about driver and siggy error need to bear in mind that they can only work on the information available, but what if that info is wrong?

I have also been signalled into a 12 coach platform which already had a 12 coach train in there but that is another story! ;)
Oh the siggy knew there was 12 in there already, which shows that even if the platform is full it can still be signalled into.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,793
Location
Nottingham
A few places are fitted with something called "Lime Street Control". Each platform is split into several track circuits and on the approach to the signal controlling platform entry there are track circuits of similar length. The signal will only clear if the system thinks there is enough empty platform to hold the train.

However I'm not sure if this would work with the bewildering variety of train lengths in use at Leeds.
 

noddingdonkey

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2012
Messages
772
Who picks up the delay minutes for this one?
  • Network Rail for signalling a train that's too long into the platform
  • Whoever's train was overhanging P4
  • Whoever's train was blocking more of P4 than expected so the second unit couldn't fit
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top