Overnight BoJ on outward portion of Off Peak Return?

[trainophile]

No I bought them on the TPE website, because I like the way that they go straight into my TPE app.

 

[alistairlees]

No I bought them on the TPE website, because I like the way that they go straight into my TPE app.

Same answer; both GWR and TPE apps are by the same owning group / ticket system provider and are identical so far as this sort of thing goes.

 

[trainophile]

Don't know why I thought it was cheaper to go to Totnes, it's actually 10p dearer! Think I was getting mixed up with Dawlish as I went there too.

So I could have left NTA station via the barriers and re-entered to complete my return journey?

 

[Blinkbonny]

Don't know why I thought it was cheaper to go to Totnes, it's actually 10p dearer! Think I was getting mixed up with Dawlish as I went there too.

So I could have left NTA station via the barriers and re-entered to complete my return journey?

I've certainly broken my journey there in those circumstances.
There's often quite a long wait for the next Paignton train.
No problems whatsoever, though I didn't find much to see within the surrounding area of the station. I think there was a park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very, very few staff will care about same-day break of journey even on a ticket where it is not permitted. In many cases you need to pass a gateline to use station facilities anyway.

 

[Class800]

At NTA, the ticket office is outside the gateline if that helps in any way

 

[Class800]

Very, very few staff will care about same-day break of journey even on a ticket where it is not permitted. In many cases you need to pass a gateline to use station facilities anyway.

I fully agree. I decided to change trains at Newport yesterday on the return portion of an Exeter St Davids to Cardiff Central 8A off-peak return. Changing trains is obviously not a BoJ but can make it look like there was one. My reason for changing was a traction related one - I wanted a ride on a specific class. When the GWR guard came through on departure from Newport asking for tickets from Newport I showed mine and there was no comment from him - even though it was an 8A from Cardiff Central. It looked like I'd started short (not allowed) - although I hadn't - just being a bit of a traction geek!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I fully agree. I decided to change trains at Newport yesterday on the return portion of an Exeter St Davids to Cardiff Central 8A off-peak return. Changing trains is obviously not a BoJ but can make it look like there was one. My reason for changing was a traction related one - I wanted a ride on a specific class. When the GWR guard came through on departure from Newport asking for tickets from Newport I showed mine and there was no comment from him - even though it was an 8A from Cardiff Central. It looked like I'd started short (not allowed) - although I hadn't - just being a bit of a traction geek!

I've been sold a ticket from Bletchley at MKC with outbound BoJ restrictions with the full declared intention of using it straight away (but returning to Bletchley rather than MKC). Most staff don't care about this sort of thing if it isn't being done to evade anything. (The Anytime fare was not being evaded because I'd never have paid it, if this was likely to be refused I'd have travelled from Bletchley, I live between the two, about 1/3 of the way to Bletchley and 2/3 to MKC).

The WCML tickets with outbound BoJ restriction have it to prevent the use of cheaper unrestricted tickets to e.g. Lancaster to go to Manchester or Preston in the evening peak, not to stop you getting on at MKC with a ticket from Bletchley if that's more convenient, say. And it's still by no means clear 8A wasn't an administrative error (though really all the 8A/3A Off Peaks should be changed to Anytimes - the Anytime Short Return with only one day's validity on the outward was created to do this for Northern, but TfW persists with them).

 

[Watershed]

I fully agree. I decided to change trains at Newport yesterday on the return portion of an Exeter St Davids to Cardiff Central 8A off-peak return. Changing trains is obviously not a BoJ but can make it look like there was one. My reason for changing was a traction related one - I wanted a ride on a specific class. When the GWR guard came through on departure from Newport asking for tickets from Newport I showed mine and there was no comment from him - even though it was an 8A from Cardiff Central. It looked like I'd started short (not allowed) - although I hadn't - just being a bit of a traction geek!

I think it's most unlikely that they are aware of the fact that 8A means there is a break of journey restriction. In fact, with virtually no BoJ restrictions on any walkup fares in the GWR area, they probably don't know such a thing even exists.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The WCML tickets with outbound BoJ restriction have it to prevent the use of cheaper unrestricted tickets to e.g. Lancaster to go to Manchester or Preston in the evening peak, not to stop you getting on at MKC with a ticket from Bletchley if that's more convenient, say. And it's still by no means clear 8A wasn't an administrative error (though really all the 8A/3A Off Peaks should be changed to Anytimes - the Anytime Short Return with only one day's validity on the outward was created to do this for Northern, but TfW persists with them).

Changing 8A/3A SVR Off Peak Returns to SHR Anytime Short Returns would have the consequence of barring an overnight break on the outbound leg, even if the journey could not be completed on the day it commenced. There are plenty of journeys where the return fare is an SHR and the journey is far from short.

Anytime Short Returns were originally created claiming “Its addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel." Didn’t work out like that in practice, with Northern changing virtually all their SOR Anytime Returns into SHR Anytime Short Returns, reducing passengers’ rights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Changing 8A/3A SVR Off Peak Returns to SHR Anytime Short Returns would have the consequence of barring an overnight break on the outbound leg, even if the journey could not be completed on the day it commenced. There are plenty of journeys where the return fare is an SHR and the journey is far from short.

8A already bars an overnight (well, any) break on the outbound leg in its restriction code. Changing to an Anytime Short Return would thus be less restrictive, as the return-half break of journey would be permitted again.

 

[Watershed]

8A already bars an overnight break on the outbound leg in its restriction code.

It doesn't specifically bar an overnight break. If you are breaking your journey for the purposes of changing trains (even if that involves an 8 hour overnight change), that's permissible with an 8A SVR. Quite likely to involve difficulties, nevertheless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't specifically bar an overnight break. If you are breaking your journey for the purposes of changing trains (even if that involves an 8 hour overnight change), that's permissible with an 8A SVR. Quite likely to involve difficulties, nevertheless.

I don't think it would bar arriving on the last train and departing on the first. I certainly do think it bars an overnight stop longer than that, because that, away from railway property, is definitely a discretionary break. Almost nobody will want to do that in most cases so it's moot.

 

[tspaul26]

8A already bars an overnight (well, any) break on the outbound leg in its restriction code. Changing to an Anytime Short Return would thus be less restrictive, as the return-half break of journey would be permitted again.

It doesn't specifically bar an overnight break. If you are breaking your journey for the purposes of changing trains (even if that involves an 8 hour overnight change), that's permissible with an 8A SVR. Quite likely to involve difficulties, nevertheless.

I don't think it would bar arriving on the last train and departing on the first. I certainly do think it bars an overnight stop longer than that, because that, away from railway property, is definitely a discretionary break. Almost nobody will want to do that in most cases so it's moot.

Break of journey is not expressly defined in the current Conditions of Travel, but was in the previous Conditions of Carriage.

That previous definition made clear that leaving railway premises to stay in overnight accommodation en route did not constitute a break of journey so any ticket restrictions would not be relevant.

If the matter were to be litigated (highly doubtful), I would expect the NRCOC definition to be carried over such that break of journey restrictions simply don’t apply to overnight stays en route (where the ticket is valid on more than one day, of course).

 

[plugwash]

On the other hand, anecdotal evidence is that the break of journey issue on these fares is close to unenforced and may not even have been introduced deliberately but rather by administrative accident. On the other other hand, there are enough staff out there who think overnight break of journey is never allowed.

I always assumed the BOJ restrictions were to prevent the fares being used as loophole fares on crosscountry services. For example using a Manchester to newport ticket as a loophole fare for manchester to Bristol.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always assumed the BOJ restrictions were to prevent the fares being used as loophole fares on crosscountry services. For example using a Manchester to newport ticket as a loophole fare for manchester to Bristol.

8A was just there by default from the Saver. But then return restrictions were added in what looked very much like an admin error.

 

[miklcct]

I don't wish to see more break of journey restrictions to be introduced, loophole fare or otherwise, as I frequently need the ability to abandon a connection when I miss a local train, and in the case of return tickets, to enable my outbound and return journeys to have different lengths.

For example, the break of journey restrictions on super off-peak Euston - Milton Keynes tickets make me impossible to travel from Euston to Leighton Buzzard on the outward, and return from Milton Keynes on a non-stop train, and I need to use an off-peak ticket instead.

I'll be priced out of train travel if break of journey restrictions are found in off-peak tickets.