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Overnight Sevices.

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reb0118

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I notice that with the start of the new high speed services from Paris to Barcelona the elipos trenhotels have disappeared from the route. The Lusitania & Sudexpresso overnight services from Hendaye/Irun to Lissabon have also lost their restaurant cars. As we also know there have been a steady decline in the scope and quality of overnight trains in recent times.

So, my question is this, what is left of the quality overnight train service that used to cover Europe? Give me your thoughts (and reviews if possible) about overnight trains, either internal or international.

Over to you.............
 
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317666

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I've used DB's CityNightLine sleepers on a few occasions in the past and found them to be brilliant, they cover a fairly sizeable array of destinations too. I think the role of the sleeper on Mainland Europe nowadays is to save time as part of a longer journey, rather than the connections they provide by themselves. There's also EuroNight services such as ÖBB's Cologne to Vienna train, although I've yet to try any of those out.

There's nothing quite like eating in a restaurant car along the Rhein Valley at sunset, before retiring to a couchette and waking up in the middle of the Austrian alps with a fresh cup of coffee the next morning. Taking a high speed train during the day and then arriving at a hotel all tired out just isn't the same.
 
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TCDD

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I've found CityNightLine to be quite good, but catering can be a bit hit and miss and those German couchettes are rather hard. For a long journey (6 hours plus) an overnight train is a pretty good option, especially in some parts of southeastern Europe where speeds are quite slow. A couple of good services are the overnight 'Corona' and 'Ister' trains to Brasov and Bucharest respectively. They both usually convey a restaurant car (which is rare on overnight trains) and cover a long distance in a certain degree of comfort.
The other thing is that it is well worth paying for a sleeper rather than simply a couchette, as a comfortable bed rather than a padded bunk can make quite a difference to a good night's sleep.
 

Squaddie

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I generally find that an overnight train journey is more trouble than it's worth, not least because it's rarely possible to make yourself look properly smart the next morning even if your berth has a shower. Give me a high-speed daytime service with a nice hotel at the end of it any day...

On the other hand, train journeys lasting several days, such as on Amtrak and the Trans-Siberian, are a real adventure.
 

scarby

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For overnight travel I prefer it to emulate the hotel experience as much as possible. That is, I want to be able to "check-in" in good time, have my own room and certainly not to be roused at some unearthly hour but to be able to enjoy breakfast before "checking out".

That's why I love the CNL Amsterdam-Copenhagen service. Leaving at 19.01, it's perfect to eat dinner in the station's ornate restuarant before boarding. You have as many hours as you wish to watch the world go by before turning in and then wake for breakfast rolling through Denmark before a 10.08 arrival in Copenhagen.

Paying the extra for my own cabin is pretty much a must for me to travel in this way though.
 

317666

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I've found CityNightLine to be quite good, but catering can be a bit hit and miss and those German couchettes are rather hard.

...

The other thing is that it is well worth paying for a sleeper rather than simply a couchette, as a comfortable bed rather than a padded bunk can make quite a difference to a good night's sleep.

In the case I mentioned I was travelling as part of a group so it made more sense to get a couchette, but agreed a proper sleeper is far more comfortable and worth paying the extra for if travelling alone.
 

grid56126

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My only recent overnights have been with the good lady and two kids (teens). They were the Paris Bercy to Roma and more recently the Paris Bercy to Verona services. These are a sort of bizarre mix of state owned / private financed service. I get priv (FIP) and only just got a slight benefit using them as they were globally price. We used the 4 berth couchette coaches and fir a family like us were absolutely ideal. The trains left Bercy at 19:00 ish and you don’t get to Roma until 10:30 and the Venice train got to Verona at 07:30. We only ever did them in the height of summer so it was superb to get in, knowing you will have nobody else joining you and just sit back and watch the French scenery slide by, the wife enjoying a Vino and the kids becoming much younger than they were a few minutes before when they get to their dens of the two upper berths. Return journeys are very similar and coming home from a holiday is always a different feeling and tends to be a 22:00 boarding but equally as social. It’s not luxury and the air con is on and off all night with the various loco changes, but that’s the fun of it. Waking up and trying to work out where you are is always part of the experience whether in a seated MK2 half way up the Lune Gorge or a back water in Slovakia.

Our last trip was in 2012 and the Paris / Italy overnight is now down to one train pair, the Roma has gone and just the Verezia via Milano / Verona runs under the banner of “Thello”. The trains now run from and to the more useful Paris Gare du Lyon instead of Bercy.

All overnights in France are now subject to check in’s at Paris and a lot of intermediate stops were withdrawn in the early 2000s after a series of pretty nasty incidents on overnight services, this was around the same time that many cross country overnights were totally withdrawn.

Just like the UK back in the “good old days” European sleeper attendants have not been averse to a little bribery. The last time I did it in the UK was when the internal overnight ran from Glasgow to Inverness, but I have often done it on the mainland. In fact the last time I did it was the first time I took the family to France, back in 2004 we did the Lille to Nice overnight as a last minute trip and could only get seats. I told the good lady not to worry too much and upon boarding I had a word with an attendant and for about twenty quid we got a couchette cabin to ourselves. All we had to do was wait until the train was about half an hour in and we were treated like royalty, with endless free drinks, the kids being much younger had never been so excited especially when circumnavigating Paris with all the lights out and the Eiffel Tower was visible, good old fashioned adventure.

When travelling alone as on proper crank trips in the 1990s I would see if the seated compartments were empty enough to spread out and if they were got goods sleep every time. If they were wedged a quick trip to the sleeper cars never failed to get something better. You just had to make them understand the equivalent of “I don’t need a ticket”. The further East I went the cheaper it got and generally the better. In Germany / Austria you would only be offered sole occupancy of Couchettes whereas in Czech / Poland / Slovakia I have had first class sleepers for just a few quid, although when I first went over US Dollars and German Marks were much more acceptable for all bribes.

The last set of overnights I did was a properly paid up set of consecutive overnights on the Amsterdam / Berlin axis. The 103s were on their last legs working just the Berlin / Bad Bentheim trains and the Munster / Koblenz runs. I coughed up for a five day first class rover and spent the entire time storming around in luxury and four consecutive nights in single berth cabins with showers and look back on it as one of my most relaxed overseas visits !

As a complete aside I have done a few UK overnights with the family recently and am still quite amazed that there are still no sockets for laptops / phones etc etc (haven’t done FGW though so no idea if they have)
 

Oscar

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The problems with running overnight services are:
- the cost (several locomotives, paths, the Trenhotel services were generously supported by the Spanish government)
- difficulty in obtaining paths as infrastructure managers want overnight possessions / conflicts with evening and night freight
- inherent lack of comfort in running an overnight service (compared to daytime services)
- delays (e.g. formalities and locomotive changes at borders)
- age of rolling stock (France has pledged to invest in some new rolling stock for its overnight services) and in particular comfort of sleepers
- limited capacity of sleepers means they are expensive
- lack of showers at stations
- arrival times not early enough for working day or too early for comfort (only small window of what is attractive)
- lack of a common European booking system - night trains are often part of a longer journey

If there is no serious investment in night services they will continue to decline, at least in the short term. The German CityNightLine has been more successful that many night services, perhaps because of the use of portion working and reforming of the train overnight for most of its services, allowing more destinations to be served. I would suggest that to reinvigorate these services, air travel also needs to be more heavily taxed. Greater co-operation and more creative thought on the part of the operators and infrastructure managers could also be part of the solution. The Paris - Italy services could perhaps be restructured along the following lines, if there was a greater willingness to do so:
Train 1 - Paris (17.45) - Dijon (20.15) - Lyon (22.15) (via Modane, Torino) - Genova (04.30 - admit that this is not attractive) - Pisa (06.30), portion for Firenze (07.30)/ portion for Roma (09.00)
Train 2 - Paris (20.30) - Dijon (23.00) - (via Modane) - Torino (06:00) - Milano (07:30) - Verona (09:00) - Venezia (10:45 - not so important for working day), connection Milano - Bologna for arrival around 09:00, connection to Roma with arrival around 11:00 for those who want later departure from Paris.
Train 1 - Roma (19.45) / Firenze (21.15) - Pisa (22.15) - Genova (00.15) (via Torino, Modane) - Lyon (06.30) - Dijon (08.30) - Paris (11.00)
Train 2 - Venezia (18.45) - Verona (20.30) - Milano (22.00) - Torino (23.30) - (via Modane) - Dijon (06.30) - Paris (09.00), connection Bologna - Milano with departure around 20.30, Roma - Milano with departure around 18.00 for arrival in Paris at start of working day.

This would attract significant new markets (Lyon, France's second city, Torino, Pisa, possibly Genova). Through ticketing SNCF/Trenitalia/Eurostar/Thalys + overnight service with fares significantly lower than those of the two individual legs combined with hugely help the business case.
 

NL Railways

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There is bad co operation between SNCF and TrenItalia to run jointly a overnight service thats why they were withdrawn and a private company Thello came into place.

The Spanish and French railways prefer now daytime highspeed service rather than overnight trainhotels. In the past you had also a overnight service from Amsterdam to Paris via Antwerp and Brussels. This was also withdrawn when Thalys started and Belgium, is one of the few countries within Europe with no overnight service.

Within the Netherlands we have good overnight connections to Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, Poland Czech Republic and in winter months to Innsbruck in Austria, thanks to CNL but i don´t like their price increases.

The best overnight services within western europe are operated by ÖBB EuroNight service which include even when you are travelling 2nd class couchette a small breakfast. Most comfortable are Polish sleepers and when you are travelling east of Budapest it is best to book a sleeper rather than couchette.

My overall opinion is that due to new highspeed links overnight services are decreasing, even in Turkey i think they will cancel overnight services Istanbul to Ankara when the highspeed link is completed.
 

Squaddie

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The simple fact is that overnight services were once a necessity because it was not possible to complete those journeys during daylight hours. Now that high-speed rail covers almost the entire continent there is no longer any need for passengers to spend a night on a train, and most passengers (I believe) would rather not do so: they just want to get to their destination, whether it be for holiday or business.
 

HSTEd

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The only way overnight trains can survive is probably through use of high speed trainsets to allow longer journeys.to be undertaken. Traditional routes are too short.
 

Essexman

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I've used German sleepers -
Paris - Munich, Hamburg - Brussels (now runs to Paris), Milan - Cologne.
French -
Chur & Zurich to Paris / Bruseels (doesn't run any more - trains seemed very old)
French - Italian -
Venice & Milan - Paris
All were enjoyable ways to travel. Quality varies but German were best.
I always book a cabin to myself and it is a relaxing way to travel.
 

anme

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The only way overnight trains can survive is probably through use of high speed trainsets to allow longer journeys.to be undertaken. Traditional routes are too short.

I've become a convert to overnight travel recently, both train and coach - there are a surprising number of well loaded coaches on Europe's roads every night! It uses time efficiently and is less unpleasant than a bad night's sleep followed by an early morning dash to an airport or station. By train, it can be a very nice way to travel and not necessarily expensive, especially if you're travelling with others and share a cabin. It remains very popular in eastern Europe - overnight trains are often fully loaded, both seating and sleeper accommodation. It's also very useful for routes that are poorly served by air, which is still the case for a quite a few journeys, especially to/from medium sized cities.

Having said that, I do fear for the future of overnight services, for the reasons given by Oscar above. From the passenger's point of view, the lack of showers (particularly when travelling on business) and the frequent difficulty in actually making bookings are negative points.
 

Squaddie

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I've become a convert to overnight travel recently, both train and coach - there are a surprising number of well loaded coaches on Europe's roads every night! It uses time efficiently and is less unpleasant than a bad night's sleep followed by an early morning dash to an airport or station. By train, it can be a very nice way to travel and not necessarily expensive, especially if you're travelling with others and share a cabin. It remains very popular in eastern Europe - overnight trains are often fully loaded, both seating and sleeper accommodation.
I think there are few travel experiences less pleasant than an overnight journey sitting upright in a seat, whether it be a train, bus or aircraft.
 

anme

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I think there are few travel experiences less pleasant than an overnight journey sitting upright in a seat, whether it be a train, bus or aircraft.

Fair enough. I used to think the same about upright seats, but given some practice I've found I can now get some sleep at least. It opens up all kinds of travel possibilities, avoiding large detours to inconvenient airports and wasting time travelling during the day, and gives a different perspective on the world. The pain is worth the gain, especially if you have someone nice to sleep on. :)

I find train and coach travel in upright seats is typically much less unpleasant than a long flight in economy class. It's usually more comfortable with better seats and legroom, and there's more opportunity to move around. Coaches even make regular stops so you can stretch your legs and get some fresh air.

Having said that - of course, I much prefer a cabin or couchette for overnight journeys. And I wouldn't sit up all night on a business trip unless I had no choice (e.g. a long haul flight).
 

NL Railways

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Most couchettes are far more comfortable than a coach seat, thats my point of view because I dont like sleeping upright. It´s also very soothing sleeping whilst travelling on rails and it´s typical sounds:D
 

HSTEd

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As people don't seem to like sharing sleeper berths with people, has anything ever been done to use things like TGV Duplex vehicles to fit more single berths into the same train length?
 

transmanche

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As people don't seem to like sharing sleeper berths with people, has anything ever been done to use things like TGV Duplex vehicles to fit more single berths into the same train length?
I think DB have some double-deck 'Comfortline' carriages with single berths on some of their CityNightLine services.
 

grid56126

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I have done the German (DB) double deck sleeper coaches in both economy 2 berth - VERY (too) cosy! On my last trip of four overnights a few years back I also did a lower level first class - sole occupancy and I suspect it was actually better then than now as there was no shower in the room - so there was more space, there was a shared shower room on that coach for first class passengers only and despite my large frame it was very spacious and I was surprised how powerful / good it was. The other three nights were in fairly standard sleeper coaches. These standard sleepers did not have showers but were extremely comfy and at the time you could use showers in Amsterdam and Berlin for free with a first class sleeper ticket and they were extremely clean and well looked after. I guess with more showers on trains they don't do this any more?

Some current CNL layouts.

http://www.citynightline.de/citynig...u/service/MDB104515-doppelstock_eco_de_en.pdf

http://www.citynightline.de/citynig...B37172-cnl_schlafwagen_doppelstock_deluxe.jpg

http://www.citynightline.de/citynig...ervice/MDB104512-doppelstock_ecodlx_de_en.pdf
 

Gordon

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The problem with single berth sleeping compartments is the cost. In the 21st century, most railway operators would say that it is not financially viable to spend money on providing single compartments and all the relevant equipment, without passing the cost on to the customer in a high fare.

The fact is that the majority of 21st century travellers can reach their destination by air, or high speed day train, or car.
 

Greenback

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If ther eis a future for overnight services, then they need to adapt their accommodation to reflect the needs of the modern traveller.

In my view, they will need to provide hotel like facilities for those prepared to pay for the comfort of a decent and larger bed. This means en suite facilties, a TV, and a small desk.

There also needs to be a budget alternative, perhaps more like the 'section' accommodation found in Canada (think 'Some Like it Hot'.)

At the moment, uncomfortable accommodation, having to share a lockable room with strangers are disincentives to use night trains. However, they remain popular with non European tourists as they do save on a night's accommodation.
 

30907

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I don't know many chain hotels either that have purpose-built single rooms. This is not surprising, as the ensuite, desk and so on take up a significant space and cost. If they have them at all, it's unusual for them to be significantly cheaper on Room Only. The same goes for ferries.

Sharing cabins is no longer possible on ferries either, and the same goes for sleepers - as opposed to couchettes - on some routes (though I notice CNL have now reverted to allowing shared Doubles).

BTW Greenback's description of hotel like facilities sounds just like first class in CNL, apart from the TV that is.
 

Gordon

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I don't know many chain hotels either that have purpose-built single rooms.

True, but many chain hotels (especially French group Accor) price rooms per room not per person and design rooms to cater for one - three people. The price is about that of a 'single' room, so that if you share the room with more people then you improve the value for money, but the room fee is often reasonable for one person.


BTW Greenback's description of hotel like facilities sounds just like first class in CNL, apart from the TV that is.

True, but the largish bed, small desk and ensuite can be obtained for as little as £30 in some chain hotels, whereas I just did a hypothetical booking on CNL and got a price of Euro 174 for the rail equivalent (minus TV!)




.
 

grid56126

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Whilst over nights are not the cheapest means of getting to places, they are very good at getting you there in a time saving way. Even our very simple network means that a friend of mine can leave Cornwall for meetings in London on the overnight and be back home the same day. She does this once a week and the alternative is to leave late the previous evening and cough up for a London Hotel.

She likes the sleeper - she is very used to sleeping on them and gets a shower at Paddington. She has to buy the train ticket anyway and the sleeper is much cheaper than a hotel.

is the CNL that expensive? The person would have to travel anyway, so even on a day service or by plane there is a cost of the initial fare.

The time saving by travelling in "dead" time is the huge benefit and is why tourists love them so much in Europe as you effectively get from one day out in a nice city to another day out in a nice city without being ripped off by the not always nice local hotels.

For train cranks they have added advantages in Germany of having diesel shunters and loco changes and international ones having up to three / forur loco changes en route. You just have to be awake !!!
 

Greenback

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BTW Greenback's description of hotel like facilities sounds just like first class in CNL, apart from the TV that is.

Yes, I'm impressed by the CNL 1st class rooms. They are the way forward for overnight travel at the high end - people;s expectations are greater these days than in the days of Hercule Poirot!
 

Squaddie

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The last overnight journey I took within Europe was from Bucharest to Istanbul. The sleeper accommodation was comfortable, but we were all woken and turfed out of the train at the border - at 1 o'clock in the morning - and made to queue at a single window to get a Turkish visa (payable only in euros, US dollars or Sterling - no Swiss francs or Australian dollars!) before being allowed back on. It wasn't exactly the best night's sleep of my life.
 

30907

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True, but the largish bed, small desk and ensuite can be obtained for as little as £30 in some chain hotels, whereas I just did a hypothetical booking on CNL and got a price of Euro 174 for the rail equivalent (minus TV!)

I agree that a budget hotel (or even a rather better one) plus a day train will always work out cheaper than a sleeper - and in many cases a later wakeup call too.

But for your money you do get a nightcap, toiletries, and a tolerable breakfast in the price - and a centre-to-centre rail journey - whereas most budget hotels I've checked out are out on rather inaccessible trading estates and not very accessible for rail users.
 

Squaddie

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But for your money you do get a nightcap, toiletries, and a tolerable breakfast in the price - and a centre-to-centre rail journey - whereas most budget hotels I've checked out are out on rather inaccessible trading estates and not very accessible for rail users.
That's no longer true. I have recently stayed at the Ibis in Innsbruck, which is directly above the Hauptbahnhof (with a direct lift from the concourse) and also the Ibis Budget in Berlin, which was 10 minutes' walk from Berlin Zoo station. Both hotels were extremely comfortable, with free Wi-Fi and very good breakfasts, and excellent value for money. (Berlin was €70 for a twin room, whereas Innsbruck was €90)
 

afyutr

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Couple of years go me and a mate did Berlin-Prague-Krakow-Lvov-Kiev-Kishinev-Bucharest. Awesome journey with a couple of nights in each City and overnight trains where appropriate. The Lvov-Kiev was a wonderful old school internal affair, with a rather grumpy but attractive female attendant in our Kupe coach stoking some form of coal burner to create hot water. Kishinev to Bucharest was similarly fun, we opted here for a 2-berth to ourselves and picnicked (and drank splendid Moldovan wine) whilst trundling along. The customs dog which came along the train at the Romanian border was a charming cocker spaniel and we had a good chat with his handler about communism.

The night bus from Kiev to Kishinev was worth it for comedy value, especially the unique picture of seeing Russian armoured vehicles at the Transdniestrian border.
 

steevp

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That's no longer true. I have recently stayed at the Ibis in Innsbruck, which is directly above the Hauptbahnhof )

I can also recommend the Ibis in Basel - other side of the tracks from the station (about 5 mins walk), comfortable, helpful staff, reasonable breakfast and a free ticket for the tram into town thrown in!
 
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