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Overnight Sevices.

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30907

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That's no longer true. I have recently stayed at the Ibis in Innsbruck, which is directly above the Hauptbahnhof (with a direct lift from the concourse) and also the Ibis Budget in Berlin, which was 10 minutes' walk from Berlin Zoo station. Both hotels were extremely comfortable, with free Wi-Fi and very good breakfasts, and excellent value for money. (Berlin was €70 for a twin room, whereas Innsbruck was €90)

There's budget and budget - Gordon was talking £30, and I was responding to that, while EUR 90 is getting towards the CNL supplement of EUR105.

I entirely agree, Ibis are good value and generally well located (B-Spandau and B-Ost are ones I've used recently).
I've not used Ibis Budget for 3-4 years when they were still ETAP - that was what I (and I guess Gordon) had in mind. Then, the one in Krefeld was cheap, not very cheerful, but right by the Hbf - but most of the ones I checked out were on trading estates. If they are now going for more city centre locations, which is what Travelodge here are doing, that's good news.

German and French hotels generally seem very competitively priced.

And BTW the Berlin hotels were an alternative to the Warsaw EN Jan Kiepura which we had originally planned on using!
 
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Greenback

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I think the point is that when choosing a night train or an overnight hotel, all sorts of things need ot be considered. Price is one of those, but the overall cost, including any transport needs to be factored in, as opposed to just looking at the basic hotel price as against the cost of the sleeper booking or whatever.
 

Gordon

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30907 was close to being correct in his submission that I was thinking ETAP. In fact I was thinking all of the variants on the 'rabbit hutch' type budget hotel.

I am somewhat of a specialist on the French Accor group, thanks to years of road travel in France.

Indeed an ever increasing number of Accor cheap hotels are in city centres or accessible from stations.

It is worth remembering that a little location planning reveals many hotels accessible to rail travellers, even sometimes the ones on industrial estates, where said estates are close to suburban or S-Bahn stations. Cheaper priced hotels can be easily accessible from suburban stations.
Examples:
Basel Ibis has been mentioned, but there is a much cheaper ETAP a few minutes walk from Pratteln station (which is great because Pratteln is an incredibly busy location with heavy freights every few minutes). The Ibis in Chur is not near the main station but is a short walk from Chur West on the frequent RhB stopping service.
There is a good value ETAP at Pantin, the first station out of Paris Est - very little time penalty on most rail trips but cheaper than central Paris a few km away!
Back in Switzerland, Ibis Luzern Kriens is usually cheaper than central Luzern hotels, But is a short easy walk from Kriens Mattenhof station on the Zentralbahn - a few mins ride from Luzern.

I originally became a fan of the F1 style as, despite the price, F1 hotels - and all original ETAPs - were all built with proper stone floors and solid stone walls between every room, providing a much quieter environment than traditional hotels at anything like the same price with their paper thin walls, creaking floors etc.

Accor has now become a hideously complex collection of brands, but the main ones are still close to the original brands and are (in ascending order of quality) Formule 1, Ibis Budget (was ETAP), Ibis Styles (was All Seasons), Ibis, Mercure, Novotel, Sofitel.

All started with Formule 1 which were a double bed with a bunk above - all exactly the same design and almost always near motorway junctions or on industry estates for quick access by road travellers. ETAP developed as a version of F1 with the same room design but with bathroom facilities in the room.

Many original Ibis were also roadside hotels, but Ibis soon spread to city centres.

Starting in the early 1990s, ETAP started to open a few hotels in city centres or close to stations, and this trend has increased. Examples of railway convenient ETAP include Toulouse, Tours, Boulogne, Pratteln (near Basel), central Berlin (several), and indeed Birmingham NEC.

ETAP has now moved away from the original F1 room style concept and the rooms are almost as good as older Ibis.





The following was written in 2008 - the story still holds true but the prices have changed - but not all that much in some cases, especially when special offers are on and out of season.

A cheap way to stay in France is the 24-hour accessible, 'plastic' budget hotel. Pioneered by the French, there are numerous chains offering these type of hotels, including 'Mister Bed', 'Formule 1', 'Premiere Classe' etc. The current average price for a room without breakfast in Formule 1 is Euros 29. Etap used to be only marginally more expensive, but now costs on average between Euros 39 and 49.

These groups have expanded in recent years outside France, and in particular ETAP opened up places in Germany (especially the former GDR which was previously bereft of hotels). ETAP is a very economical way of staying in normally pricey Germany. Formule 1 is now in the following countries: France, South Africa, Australia, UK, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Netherlands, Switzerland, Brazil and Japan.

Formule 1 were the original, and are by far the most numerous. They are the cheapest because they have showers and toilets outside the rooms. ETAP hotels are a version of Formule 1, but with basic 'en suite' bathroom. Premiere Classe also has en suite, but often has external balcony entry to rooms, and like Formule 1 these are seldom in town centres or near stations.

There are an increasing number of ETAP hotels near stations, partly because of Accor group's recent policy of putting one of their chain's names to franchised establishments (these are shown with an asterisk in Accor hotel lists but can sometimes suffer from poorer room standards and service than true Accor managed versions. Here is a selection of ETAP's which I know which are near the stations in cities which are highest up the agenda of bashers in France currently:

ETAP:
Bordeaux (facing Gare St Jean), Limoges, Boulogne sur Mer, Marseille Blancarde, Cannes, Troyes, Albi. There are an increasing number of ETAPs away from industrial estates and motorway junctions and in town centres, and which are therefore an ëacceptableí walking distance (up to 1km) from the nearest station ñ eg ChambÈry, Beziers, SËte; Vitrolles (Marseille Airport), Toulouse, Voreppe (nr Grenoble)

The following are other advantages and disadvantages of these type of hotels.

Advantages:
Cheap; easy to access and use for a 'quick' night's sleep as required by most rail enthusiasts; Consistent style guarantees sound-proofing, eg less creaky floors than old hotels (in true versions - may not be the case in franchised versions ñ see above; No restriction of getting out in the morning, as check-in and payment all done before or on arrival; Basic food and drink vending machines for emergency snacks

Disadvantages:
Usually in industrial estates where land is cheap, and therefore best suited to car users; no en suite (Formule 1)

Links
For Accor hotels (F1, Etap Ibis) see http://www.accorhotels.com/
 
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reb0118

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Does anyone know if the trenhotels still run on any internal Spanish routes? And if so, do they have restaurant cars?

Cheers.
 

anme

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There's budget and budget - Gordon was talking £30, and I was responding to that, while EUR 90 is getting towards the CNL supplement of EUR105.

Money is one factor when choosing how to make a journey, but time is another. As I work, I have limited holiday available, and travelling overnight is an efficient use of time. Of course, it depends on the exact situation, but I find myself travelling overnight more and more often - once you do it a few times, you realise just how useful it is!
 

Greenback

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I find travelling overnight works best on the way when I can finish work a little earlier and use the Dutch Flyer, or make the Scottish sleepers by leaving work at he usual time.
 

Dumpton Park

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Does anyone know if the trenhotels still run on any internal Spanish routes? And if so, do they have restaurant cars?

Cheers.

Man in Seat 61 reported that restaurants were being withdrawn ay the end of last year, which would appear to be true from the lack of mention of inclusive food on the website. A great shame as it was always jolly good fun - not so very long ago alcohol was unlimited for Gran Class travellers.

This means that UK sleepers now include a better complementary food offer (ie some breakfast) than the Spanish ones.

Dp
 

30907

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Seat 61 only reported the withdrawal of the restaurants on the Lisbon trains, but the renfe site linked earlier is silent about them on the internal services.

I agree it's a shame, based on one experience my family thought it excellent
 

gingerheid

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I'd like to see sleeper services with space efficient rooms like Yotel have. They are very small, but also have (in some form) a usable bed, table, full bathroom, & tv.
 

anme

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Well, sleeper cabins are already small. :)
Any views on a sleeper train with Japanese-style capsule beds?
 

Techniquest

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Seems a bit of a mix of opinion on overnight trains on this thread. Like others, the lack of comfort on sleeper trains is a big off-putter for me. When I did my 14 ALR 2012 I found myself getting desperate to ensure my phone got charged because of a lack of a way to keep it charged overnight on the sleeper. Thank Goodness day trains have power sockets on many of them now! Moreso, thank Goodness I had more hotel nights than sleeper journeys!

Not done a sleeper journey since some time in mid June 2012, not quite sure (and feeling too lazy to look it up!) whether it was Glasgow to Euston or Euston to Glasgow, but it was hardly an experience I'd want to go for again. Memories of the berths in 2006 on the Caledonian Insomniac are of some rough riding at times and occasionally getting shaken awake. The rest of the times I went seated sleeper, as I had already spent enough money and berths at £49+ weren't an option. Think I did look into it on an Edinburgh to Euston journey on that ALR, but it was full. No fun in the Seated Sleeper carriages, as although the seats are comfy for a few hours, the lack of room is just no good at all. Then you've got the horrors of THAT noise of the MK2's brakes to drive you up the wall, especially if you're crammed in with someone else's legs less than an inch from your own. No, never again sorry on the Scottish sleeper.

Not quite the same story on FGW, those former First Class seats are nice and comfy and much more room for everyone. Plus you get none of that sound from hell (exaggeration yes, but you try suffering it multiple nights in a row and getting major headaches from it at outrageously-silly-o-clock in the morning, then you'll not disagree with me) as it's MK3s throughout the train.

As for the tolerable breakfast, I never agreed with that both from the couple of times I had it in 2006 or from observing what others got. Would rather pop into Greggs over the road from Glasgow Central and get something far more filling and tasty!

Overnight coach journeys, ugh don't get me started on those. Don't think I've ever had more than a fitful bit of doss on those, those seats on whatever Megabus were using at the time were far from comfortable. Then there's the torture of being tired but also wide awake on the M1 when all you want is a decent night's sleep after a busy day, with another coming up. The M6 is no better, mind you nor is the M4 day or night, awake or not! I'd have to be desperate to get somewhere on the cheap to even consider a long coach journey again. Maybe that's partly because I have to endure approximately 2 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week, on buses. My road mileage is quite impressive, although unsurprising with my minimum commute being 43.2 miles a day, the average being 47 miles.

So if you haven't already guessed it, I'm firmly in the camp of day train and hotel. You can get some good bargains sometimes on hotels, and you've got all the comforts and modern day essentials you need. Well, except for a kettle in Ibis Budget at least. Plus when you've got to be careful on the mainland, as budget hotel quality varies drastically. I've stayed in some terrible places so sticking to the big brands when away is essential. That said HEM Hotel in Amsterdam is still the best one I've stayed in when abroad, highly recommended for budget travellers!
 

Greenback

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Seems a bit of a mix of opinion on overnight trains on this thread. Like others, the lack of comfort on sleeper trains is a big off-putter for me. When I did my 14 ALR 2012 I found myself getting desperate to ensure my phone got charged because of a lack of a way to keep it charged overnight on the sleeper. Thank Goodness day trains have power sockets on many of them now! Moreso, thank Goodness I had more hotel nights than sleeper journeys!

Hotel rooms have changed beyond all recognition over the last thirty years, and so have the expectations of the customer. A Travelodge is far, far better than the sort of squalor I had toe ndure in a small hotel as recently as 1993. I think the internet has helped to force up standards too.

The trouble is, that the sleepers are the amount reflect what was considered to be acceptable back in the late 1970's, when the stock was designed and, naturally, was base don what railway sleeping carriages had always been like. They do, therefore, compare unfavourably with the average modern hotel experience!

it was hardly an experience I'd want to go for again. Memories of the berths in 2006 on the Caledonian Insomniac are of some rough riding at times and occasionally getting shaken awake.

My experience has been variable. I have had some good journeys where I have slept well, and some where I have struggled to sleep at all. The trouble for me is, that as I can be a bit of an insomniac, I'm unsure whether to blame the fact that I am on a train and boucing over points for a failure to sleep - especially as when I have slept well the train has been just as bouncy as when I haven't!

As for the tolerable breakfast, I never agreed with that both from the couple of times I had it in 2006 or from observing what others got. Would rather pop into Greggs over the road from Glasgow Central and get something far more filling and tasty!

I very rarely eat breakfast, so I don't particularly care whether the offering is tolerable or not. I will almost always wait until a bit later in the day before I eat anything, though a cup of tea always goes down well no matter what it tastes like!

Overnight coach journeys, ugh don't get me started on those. Don't think I've ever had more than a fitful bit of doss on those, those seats on whatever Megabus were using at the time were far from comfortable. Then there's the torture of being tired but also wide awake on the M1 when all you want is a decent night's sleep after a busy day, with another coming up. The M6 is no better, mind you nor is the M4 day or night, awake or not! I'd have to be desperate to get somewhere on the cheap to even consider a long coach journey again.

Quite. I've managed two long distance coach journeys through the night and that is quite enough for me, thank you!

So if you haven't already guessed it, I'm firmly in the camp of day train and hotel. You can get some good bargains sometimes on hotels, and you've got all the comforts and modern day essentials you need. Well, except for a kettle in Ibis Budget at least. Plus when you've got to be careful on the mainland, as budget hotel quality varies drastically. I've stayed in some terrible places so sticking to the big brands when away is essential. That said HEM Hotel in Amsterdam is still the best one I've stayed in when abroad, highly recommended for budget travellers!

It very much depends on the circumstances, but I am quite happy to use a sleeper train if it means avoiding getting up in the middle of the night to go to an airport instead.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I'm rather disappointed to see sleeper services abroad on the decline.

Just after Easter last year I had what the booking agent referred to as a "last minute" trip to Cartagena (last minute being a booking four weeks before travel!) which was near enough 36 hours by train from Manchester (including a slight diversion via York). The only places I could get on the sleeper were Gran Class or reclining seats! (and there weren't many seats left). The cost of flying was double the rail fare (because I have priv).

This year I may go again, nearer June or July, but, looking at the DB journey planning website, it seems as though the rail journey has now extended to more than 60 hours (including nine hours alone in a foreign city overnight). So much for high speed travel! Guess I'll be flying this year.
 

30907

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Don't rely on the DB site that far ahead for Spain - the full train service isn't loaded yet.

I get Paris-Cartagena as around 24hours using the Paris-Port Bou overnight as far as Perpignan, with a TGV connection to Barcelona, or the Paris-Latour de Carol overnight and a regional train onward. Not exactly Gran Clase but good enough, and can't be more than a day and a half from anywhere in England

The details are on www.seat61.com, though I notice Mark Smith opts for an overnight stop in Barcelona instead.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I'd been looking generally, not for that month yet. I realise there won't be firm plans yet.

The overnight stop in Barcelona is a no-no unless I want to pay for my journey to London or have an overnight stop there, both of which could add £30 or more to the cost of the trip each way.

I'll see about using another planner for the option you highlight but it might depend on the time I have to leave Paris.
 

Oscar

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The timetable I would suggest for this trip is:

17.31 London St. Pancras - 20.47 Paris Nord
21.57 Paris Austerlitz - 07.51 Latour de Carol (Intercités de nuit)
08.48 Latour de Carol - 11.35 Barcelona Sants (R3)
12.00 Barcelona Sants - 19.52 Cartagena (Talgo)

08.50 Cartagena - 09.34 Murcia (Altaria)
09.45 Murcia - 16.37 Barcelona Sants (Talgo)
17.16 Barcelona Sants - 19.57 Cerbère (R11)
or: 18.26 Barcelona Sants - 19.47 Perpignan (AVE)
20.12 Cerbère - 21.07 Perpignan - 07.22 Paris Austerlitz (Intercités de nuit)
09.13 Paris Nord - 10.30 London St. Pancras (also 08.43 on certain days)

Some of the Spanish trains are not shown in the DB planner (Talgo and AVE) beyond the end of March, but if you look for dates before that you should find itineraries similar to the one suggested.
 
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Oscar

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I'm afraid there isn't another viable itinerary for the return - other options involve a night in Barcelona, taking a night train from Albacete to Barcelona at 0236 or leaving Cartagena even earlier.
 

30907

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That night train from Albacete starts from Granada and has a good Paris connection in Barcelona - you could pick it up at an enroute stop (Linares-Baeza seems to work) if you aren't bothered about the travel.
Doesn't look so brilliant on the outward journey.

BTW I'm slightly hesitant about the suggestions - mine and Oscar's - for the outward journey because of the relatively tight connection in Barcelona.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I'm afraid there isn't another viable itinerary for the return

And there is the problem. I would actually be at a place not far from Cartagena, but it's a walk to a Feve line station and then a ride in to Cartagena, and whilst I could use that at that time of the morning, I'd have to be on my way to the Feve station sometime around 7am!

- other options involve a night in Barcelona, taking a night train from Albacete to Barcelona at 0236 or leaving Cartagena even earlier.

Again, not ideal.

I think perhaps there is....

16:00 Cartagena - 21:00 Madrid Chamartin (Altaria)
22:30 Madrid Chamartin - 07:05 Barcelona Sants (Trenhotel)
09:20 Barcelona Sants - 15:53 Paris Gare de Lyon (TGV)
17:19 Paris Nord - 18:30 London St Pancras Int. (Eurostar)

Leaves Cartagena five hours later than I did last year and gets to St Pancras four hours later, and that means getting home via GC is not gonna happen so I'd have an extra cost there. Though I am surprised a journey planner wouldn't pick this up as a through journey so maybe there is a reason it won't work???????
 

reb0118

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.................and that means getting home via GC is not gonna happen so I'd have an extra cost there.........

Remember that you can priv certain fares from London International CIV+. These can be very reasonable esp. if the fare is set by east coast trains as they price the single as a EOS i.e an open ticket unlike Virgin who set it as a EVS equivalent to a SVS so non privable.

e.g. London International to Leeds is £12.65
 

Oscar

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Again, not ideal.

I think perhaps there is....

16:00 Cartagena - 21:00 Madrid Chamartin (Altaria)
22:30 Madrid Chamartin - 07:05 Barcelona Sants (Trenhotel)
09:20 Barcelona Sants - 15:53 Paris Gare de Lyon (TGV)
17:19 Paris Nord - 18:30 London St Pancras Int. (Eurostar)

Leaves Cartagena five hours later than I did last year and gets to St Pancras four hours later, and that means getting home via GC is not gonna happen so I'd have an extra cost there. Though I am surprised a journey planner wouldn't pick this up as a through journey so maybe there is a reason it won't work???????

Well done, I stand corrected, I hadn't though of this option. Journey planners don't pick it up because you can leave 2 hours later and travel via Albacete, though that means a 5 hour wait there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BTW I'm slightly hesitant about the suggestions - mine and Oscar's - for the outward journey because of the relatively tight connection in Barcelona.

The Catalan regional trains normally seem to be quite punctual. The itinerary does allow for a delay of around 15 minutes to the Latour - Barcelona service. Otherwise the OP could take the 10:07 TGV from Perpignan which arrives at Barcelona-Sants at 11:27 (upper level, so same as Talgo).
 

30907

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I think perhaps there is....

16:00 Cartagena - 21:00 Madrid Chamartin (Altaria)
22:30 Madrid Chamartin - 07:05 Barcelona Sants (Trenhotel)
09:20 Barcelona Sants - 15:53 Paris Gare de Lyon (TGV)
17:19 Paris Nord - 18:30 London St Pancras Int. (Eurostar)

Didn't spot it because the RENFE site doesnt class the overnight as a Trenhotel but as Estrella (couchettes only) - but much more sensible than my Granada suggestion!
 

hairyhandedfool

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Remember that you can priv certain fares from London International CIV+. These can be very reasonable esp. if the fare is set by east coast trains as they price the single as a EOS i.e an open ticket unlike Virgin who set it as a EVS equivalent to a SVS so non privable.

e.g. London International to Leeds is £12.65

I had never noticed that difference. I actually live in Greater Manchester, but I can travel on GC and Northern for free. Going on East Coast/FTPE would likely cost around £18-£20 to get back to Manchester, I suppose it's better than £40, must look at the positives.

Well done, I stand corrected, I hadn't though of this option.....

I think it was pot luck.....

....Journey planners don't pick it up because you can leave 2 hours later and travel via Albacete, though that means a 5 hour wait there....

Hmm, typical, Thinking of the passenger obviously. sigh....
 

reb0118

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I had never noticed that difference. I actually live in Greater Manchester, but I can travel on GC and Northern for free. Going on East Coast/FTPE would likely cost around £18-£20 to get back to Manchester, I suppose it's better than £40, must look at the positives.

Try to book as far west as eastcoast price the flow, then all you need is a local single to finish the journey. Huddersfield is a good example, check the difference in fare between the via Manchester (Virgin) and any permitted (eastcoast) routes here. As you can see quite a difference!

You could bale at Huddersfield and catch a Northern stopper to save a few more pennies.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Didn't spot it because the RENFE site doesnt class the overnight as a Trenhotel but as Estrella (couchettes only) - but much more sensible than my Granada suggestion!

DB had it as "nacht-schnellzug" but my German isn't very good so I went with what I know, if it's a train I can sleep on it's probably good enough (certainly better than a cold lonely station for five hours).......

Try to book as far west as eastcoast price the flow, then all you need is a local single to finish the journey. Huddersfield is a good example, check the difference in fare between the via Manchester (Virgin) and any permitted (eastcoast) routes here. As you can see quite a difference!

You could bale at Huddersfield and catch a Northern stopper to save a few more pennies.

I'll have a closer look at the timetable (which will probably change by the time I travel anyway), but I suspect getting the stopper from Huddersfield (saving a few pennies on train fare) could end up costing me a few pounds on a night bus fare for the final few miles home....

Anyway, I suspect I have diverted this thread far too much already.....
 

reb0118

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Anyway, I suspect I have diverted this thread far too much already.....

Well I don't think so ~ and I started this thread! :p

Back on topic - sort of?

I'm in the process of booking the trenhotel from Vigo to Barcelona (HOT 921). Deutsche Bahn who process our staff bookings have said that they are unable to book "gran clase" - if I book a standard twin sleeper do you think it is possible to upgrade locally either at the station or by seeing the train manager? Obviously dependant if space is available on the night.

Also will there be a restaurant car for dinner &/or breakfast? We will be on it from 17:55 to 08:50 so a restaurant will be a bonus.
 

30907

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See Renfe Trenhotel page. Looks to me like restaurants are downgraded to buffet. Seat61 also reports major reduction in Preferente meal service from last month.
 
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