pdeaves
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Here http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/misc/telegraph.shtm for those interested.
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Overspeed at Dauntsey, 12 August 2020.
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Just because they might have started out as backronyms, doesn’t mean they can’t officially be adopted. As far as I am concerned, if they are on official literature then they are pretty much official...any thing else is just splitting hairs.
I do not work in the industry, but if a speed restriction is imposed going from 125 to 20 mph, why are there not staged slowing down speed restrictions further back up the track? i.e. 2 miles back the speed reduces to 80mph, 1 mile back it reduces to 40 mph, so that when approaching the 'danger area', you are able to slow to 20 mph.
Because the warning board, and therefore braking point for the speed restriction is placed at a distance from the restriction where reasonable braking can achieve the required speed. Why have 3 restrictions when just 1 will do? There is sufficient signage and paperwork out there already, why add more to the mix?
Exactly. All acronyms have to mean something at some point. Without something official, rather than a 2 bit website to say so, I'll stick with rulebook definitions too.
theageofthetra
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But again as I asked earlier with such a massive speed drop at short notice why was a message not issued over GSMR? The technology is there why isn't it being used effectively?
That, I don't know, and agree that a gsmr broadcast would have been pertinent.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Also each speed board means someone going trackside which is a safety risk. There's little point in sending someone to several extra places unless there's a significant safety benefit. The way the braking curves work, the train will probably overspeed the restriction if the first board isn't acted on even if they brake at any extra one between it and the start of the restriction.
Also the multiple AWS cancellations might be a distraction.
Not necessarily, going back to telegram days (which it does) it was just a convenient short word to use. Telegrams were charged by the word, so a whole series of internal code words arose. "Vice" for 'instead of', "Arrow" for 'send this message forward', etc. They had to be proper dictionary words, and were also selected so similarly-sounding/spelt words were not used, which limited the choice. The old GWR named all their various pw department equipment after fish, which is where "Dogfish" and "Bloater" as wagon types comes from. Less chargeable words than '20 ton pw department ballast wagon'.
greatkingrat
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The problem is then you have to base everything around the train with the worst braking performance. So if you base it on freight braking, then passenger trains will be delayed unnecessarily by slowing down too early.
alxndr
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As discussed in the Sandy report it sounds like they gave it a go once, found that it didn't help, and appear to have never tried again.
philthetube
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You really want something failsafe, and this would be dependent on someone, probably with loads of other things to do, having to remember this for every train at the correct moment,
theageofthetra
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The broadcast is automatically issued once set up if I recall? I'm sure there was one done for some issue or the other near New Cross. If the driver acknowledged the message correctly the signal cleared, if they didn't the signal was kept at danger and signaller contacted the driver verbally.
Could the signals show a single yellow aspect approachng the speed restriction to encourage trains to slow down?
Something like this was discussed at length in a thread about track worker safety with the ultimate same goal of bringing the train's speed down through using restrictive aspects and came to the conclusion that it wouldn't work (damned if I can find the thread now though). Not only are there technical issues around doing this (you can't set any signal to yellow[/caution] directly, only the one ahead to stop, but you can't even set the aspect at all on most automatic signals unless they've got an emergency revert) but it also wouldn't necessarily slow drivers down enough or in the right place - in some places where they see a yellow signal they might be able to continue at line speed for a mile before needing to brake for the expected stop aspect, etc and could cause them to miss the intended thing you're trying to draw attention to as they're concentrating on the signals instead
Absolutely. It’s clear to everyone exactly what it means, and it’s very much an “official” term these days, used in both NR publications and TOC training materials. Whether or not that used to be the case in the dim and distant past is irrelevant.
Pretty sure the broadcasts aren’t linked to the signals in that way? I’ve certainly only ever either heard a broadcast while running on proceed aspects, or been checked down to a red and instructed to call the box.
At least 50% of the time I’ve received GSMR broadcasts they’ve been of such poor quality that they’re impossible to understand, and I’ve ended up calling the box anyway.
DorkingMain
Member
I've heard many stories about speed restrictions being implemented with poor signage, including situations where the warning board is put halfway down a platform on the offside and then the driver changed over at the end of the platform, not realising. It's once again a case of the railway failing to standardise arrangements for these situations, which then leaves the ground-level P-way workers left to make decisions about where to place signage and which signage to place.
Depends - some speed restrictions only apply to passenger trains or freight trains (as was originally the case in this incident, and one of the factors that led to it). Not beyond the realms of possibility to create separate warning boards for freight and passenger trains.
Depends - some speed restrictions only apply to passenger trains or freight trains (as was originally the case in this incident, and one of the factors that led to it). Not beyond the realms of possibility to create separate warning boards for freight and passenger trains.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
It would need the GSM-R system to provide a feed into the interlocking, which would not clear the signal unless that feed was present (plus all the other conditions to clear the signal). That would be major modification to a safety-critical system to retrofit, somewhat less difficult for new but still introducing extra cost and another thing to go wrong.
They are linked to the Track Circuit (berth triggered) I belive they can also be linked to a specific cell and even triggered to play at specific time intervals too.
They exist and were used in this incident.
DorkingMain
Member
If I'm reading it correctly the signage that distinguished the two was changed from freight to freight + passenger with minimal fanfare and no WON / depot notices, and that's where the confusion came from?
Yes indeed. But to make them actually trigger the signal to clear just by acknowledging* sounds far fetched as per @edwin_m ’s point.
As I say I’ve found the broadcasts pretty hit and miss. It’s a good idea in principle but, like other aspects of the GSMR, doesn’t stand up too well in the real world!
*Although often it seems this is what the SG button does.
As soon as you hit it, the signal instantly changes to green
.It was originally and correctly signed as a 30/125 restriction ESR, changed, also technically correctly to a universal 20 restriction. The issue was it had spent weeks as a differential speed so the driver thought the 125 signage had fallen down rather than changed entirely
I know some don't like me mentioning past ways, but more than 100 years ago the GWR just left the distant on. The signalbox had put out a red flag, and the one after the restriction point showed a green flag. Believe it or not, it worked.
My hunch is the minimalist approach is now gone for because everyone is paranoid about being hit for delay minutes and associated cost nowadays.
My hunch is the minimalist approach is now gone for because everyone is paranoid about being hit for delay minutes and associated cost nowadays.
pdeaves
Established Member
Just for info, I have updated the page to (hopefully) draw that out better.
Still not proof.
*Although often it seems this is what the SG button does.
As soon as you hit it, the signal instantly changes to green
I always thought the SG button turned the kettle off.
I don't mind the berth triggered messages but as you say, they can be hit and miss. The GSMR is a great tool that could be used more effectivley but as you say, the real world is very different. On my drive today it dropped out 4 times :/
I’m not sure what point you and @Taunton are making. What does it matter that it was once used as a telegraph code? Even that website notes that some of these archaic terms continue to be used in the industry.
As has been pointed out above there are references to SPATE boards in the rule book. They are mentioned in NR publications and I rang the signaller up a few weeks ago, on a GSMR in 2020, to report a SPATE board which had fallen over. He knew instantly what I was taking about.
It remains a commonly used term within the industry, so I reckon I’ll continue to call a SPATE a SPATE.
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