Overtaken Train Question (15/02)

[westv]

Is there any particular reason the 17:33 Harrogate service from Kings Cross was allowed to overtake the 17:19 Hull Service?

 

[dwaynedibleyuk]

1H10, the hull train, was late into Peterborough so was sent slow line for 1S27 to Edinburgh to pass. A move that would usually be done at Doncaster. While 1H10 was on the slow line it made sense to send 1D24, the Harrogate train, through as well so it can make PPM (passenger performance measure) as the Hull train had no chance of making PPM. Standard regulating for a signaller.

 

[westv]

1H10, the hull train, was late into Peterborough so was sent slow line for 1S27 to Edinburgh to pass. A move that would usually be done at Doncaster. While 1H10 was on the slow line it made sense to send 1D24, the Harrogate train, through as well so it can make PPM (passenger performance measure) as the Hull train had no chance of making PPM. Standard regulating for a signaller.

Ok thanks.
We were told it was running late due to following a late running "local service" to Peterborough. It was "only" 10 mins late into Peterborough. I'm surprised they thought it better to double the delay (24 mins late at one point) for the service.

 

[Mathew S]

Ok thanks.
We were told it was running late due to following a late running "local service" to Peterborough. It was "only" 10 mins late into Peterborough. I'm surprised they thought it better to double the delay (24 mins late at one point) for the service.

By the sounds of it, it was a case of delaying one train rather than three. Irritating for the Hull passengers obviously, but undoubtedly the right decision.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Not the first time that the Hull train has been overtaken by the Harrogate in my experience. Perfectly sound explanation as given above. Has blown my planned connection at Doncaster before now but I understand why.

 

[westv]

I suppose it's not quite as annoying as the times the service arrives well on time at Doncaster and then just sits there getting later and later while it waits for the late running Edinburgh train.

 

[Master29]

Not the first time that the Hull train has been overtaken by the Harrogate in my experience. Perfectly sound explanation as given above. Has blown my planned connection at Doncaster before now but I understand why.

Could it not be simply because it`s an open access situation whereby priority would be given to mainline operators. I might be wrong however.

 

[dwaynedibleyuk]

Could it not be simply because it`s an open access situation whereby priority would be given to mainline operators. I might be wrong however.

I wouldn't say the fact Hull trains are an open access operator makes a difference. I certainly don't base any regulating decisions on that. On the East Coast Mainline it is all about minimising overall delay. A late running Edinburgh train can cause a lot more delay as it heads north and misses its path at key regulating points.

I understand it can be frustrating for the those affected but regulating decisions are generally made for the benefit of the most at the expense of the few.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Could it not be simply because it`s an open access situation whereby priority would be given to mainline operators. I might be wrong however.

All three trains - Hull, Edinburgh and Harrogate - are nationalised LNER services.

 

[yorkie]

Could it not be simply because it`s an open access situation whereby priority would be given to mainline operators. I might be wrong however.

No. Priority is not given on that basis. The 1719 to Hull is operated by LNER anyway.

Priority was given to faster services which would also have been carrying more passengers. It kept overall delay minutes to a minimum. So it was the right decision.

 

[westv]

No. Priority is not given on that basis. The 1719 to Hull is operated by LNER anyway.

Priority was given to faster services which would also have been carrying more passengers. It kept overall delay minutes to a minimum. So it was the right decision.

I'm not sure if the Harrogate service is any/much busier than the Hull service.
The Hull service seems to have recently gained more people who change at Doncaster (a change in the connections timetable?).

 

[westv]

Could it not be simply because it`s an open access situation whereby priority would be given to mainline operators. I might be wrong however.

I assume that's the reason the Hull Trains 06:00 Beverley to London service has an excessive 10 minute timetabled (+ if LNER services are running late) wait at Retford.

 

[A Challenge]

I assume that's the reason the Hull Trains 06:00 Beverley to London service has an excessive 10 minute timetabled (+ if LNER services are running late) wait at Retford.

That is just because as they are an OAA they have to find paths that fit around other services by franchised operators.

 

[dwaynedibleyuk]

I assume that's the reason the Hull Trains 06:00 Beverley to London service has an excessive 10 minute timetabled (+ if LNER services are running late) wait at Retford.

I would argue that it isn't excessive given that the only other options would be for the service to wait somewhere else, run later in the day or to not run at all. Capacity on the ECML at that time of the day is not very good so sometimes trains have to wait for a path.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It would also depend on the next workings of the stock and crew. If the stock and crew don't do anything more when they get to their destination or have a load of spare time, then that train may be more likely to be held than a train with tighter workings at its destination

 

[DarloRich]

Could it not be simply because it`s an open access situation whereby priority would be given to mainline operators. I might be wrong however.

Correct- you are wrong. Ownership has o bearing on regulation

 

[westv]

It would also depend on the next workings of the stock and crew. If the stock and crew don't do anything more when they get to their destination or have a load of spare time, then that train may be more likely to be held than a train with tighter workings at its destination

33 minute turnaround so not loads but not tight.

 

[DarloRich]

I assume that's the reason the Hull Trains 06:00 Beverley to London service has an excessive 10 minute timetabled (+ if LNER services are running late) wait at Retford.

.

Another incorrect statement

 

[westv]

.

Another incorrect statement

Which bit is wrong?

 

[DarloRich]

Which bit is wrong?

That becuase they are not franchised the hull trains service is given a less favourable routing or timetable slot to give someone else a better one

 

[A Challenge]

That becuase they are not franchised the hull trains service is given a less favourable routing or timetable slot to give someone else a better one

But that is true isn't it, because they have to fit their trains into paths not used by the franchised operators (and other Open Access operators already running, if there are any)?

Edit: ...and that wait is there because they are waiting for the available path south of Retford, as there wasn't a path south from Retford 10 minutes earlier (or into Retford 10 minutes later). They are having to fit in amongst the other services, so getting the less-good paths.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That becuase they are not franchised the hull trains service is given a less favourable routing or timetable slot to give someone else a better one

I think that maybe you cannot confirm that it isn't true. It might be true, it might not be true. Does Hull Trains have a representative in Control with Network Rail like LNER does to look after the company's interests?

 

[Highlandspring]

The Control function for Hull Trains is undertaken by Transpennine Express Control in Manchester.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The Control function for Hull Trains is undertaken by Transpennine Express Control in Manchester.

Which isn't in York where the Control function for LNER is, as well as the Network Rail controllers for that area

 

[Highlandspring]

Thats self evident isn't it? Or did I need to spell it out?

 

[DarloRich]

I think that maybe you cannot confirm that it isn't true. It might be true, it might not be true. Does Hull Trains have a representative in Control with Network Rail like LNER does to look after the company's interests?

Which isn't in York where the Control function for LNER is, as well as the Network Rail controllers for that area

What is your point? That controllers are biased towards franchised operators? If you are you need to be very clear about that and present your evidence. I know posters here like to see conspiracy at every turn but i have never seen a control discussion influenced by who owns a train company.

BTW - do TPE,GC or XC ( or the FOC's for that matter) have a representative in the NR control to "look after the company interests?"

 

[Deepgreen]

Is there any particular reason the 17:33 Harrogate service from Kings Cross was allowed to overtake the 17:19 Hull Service?

Any particular day in mind?

 

[westv]

Any particular day in mind?

The day the thread started.

 

[Surreytraveller]

What is your point? That controllers are biased towards franchised operators? If you are you need to be very clear about that and present your evidence. I know posters here like to see conspiracy at every turn but i have never seen a control discussion influenced by who owns a train company.

BTW - do TPE,GC or XC ( or the FOC's for that matter) have a representative in the NR control to "look after the company interests?"

Not biased as such. More a case of more likely to do what the person who is standing next to them keeps nagging them to do, rather than someone somewhere else the other side of the country who they do not know asks them to do. Its human nature