Oxford Street to be pedestrianised by 2020

[Deerfold]

Or, dare I suggest it, actually a better place for an all electric version of First's unfortunate fated FTR? That is Half bus, half tram after all.

Is shuttling between Leeds and Bradford (until next weekend) that terribke a fate?

 

[plcd1]

This topic was touched on by Val Shawcross when she appeared in front of the London Assembly last week. There are three major pieces of work that TfL are doing at the moment in response to the new Mayoral policies.

Firstly there will be a "bus network review" in the Autumn.

- a desire to "rebalance" the network between inner and outer London
- aim is to deal with growing demand where it exists
- to work with the boroughs and other politicians to identify problem areas and concerns and missing links.
- to ensure there are effective bus services to essential public services / health facilities
- to ensure development areas have bus links *in advance* of developments being finished and occupied.
- to ensure clean buses are deployed on corridors and in areas with poor air quality
- to deal with the issues raised by the proposed expansion of the ULEZ.

She also said the Hopper ticket should allow better utilisation of the bus network, raise its efficiency and allow people not to be stuck waiting for one through bus but to change en route.

Secondly there are Oxford St issues.

Apparently the pedestrianisation work is being looked at in 3 phases.

TCR - Oxford Circus
Oxford Circus - Selfridges
Selfridges - Marble Arch

The last of the above may not happen before 2020 as it is much more difficult to do.

Val said that she felt that TfL "had got stuck in a rut" over bus service planning and the ramifications for Central London if you have very frequent and overlapping radial services all trying to get to / through Zone 1. Seems a massive process is now underway to "comb out" (her words) the radial routes to rationalise them, reducing resources on them, reroute them and cut them short of Zone 1. This will be done *before* Crossrail opens in 2018 so expect massive, seismic changes to remove a lot of buses from Zone 1 and its approaches. Consultation is expected by end 2016 on the bus changes. It is also clear that there is no intention to simply reroute services down side / parallel roads. The Hopper ticket was also cited as now giving TfL additional options on service planning with far more enforced interchange for people making what are now direct journeys.

Finally the other really important thing she said was that TfL are being forced by City Hall to "very rapidly" speed up the renewal of the bus fleet to get cleaner, more modern buses into service quickly. NB4Ls won't be removed from service or withdrawn early. The remaining 195 on order will also be delivered and put into service.

If you take the three big themes above you can see that there may be enormous changes on the way. Note that some will happen *before* Crossrail opens in 2018 so that buses are removed from Oxford St prior to a big increase in pedestrian flows as expected from Crossrail stations.

 

[Antman]

That's part of the problem there shouldn't be any terminating buses in central London - if all buses were through could reduce buses by at least a third

Exactly!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would be a total reversal of the evolution of bus transport in London. Apart from anything else it would require the end of the bus flat fare system, the re-tendering of bus routes so that e.g. Metroline and Stagecoach 'shared' routes and, regrettably, the practicality of traffic congestion, drivers' hours etc would mean buses having to be turned short with sickening regularity i.e. in central London. I do happen to think that certain routes in central London would benefit from quite short extensions but it does not fit the existing ethos, nor the cutbacks which are going to happen because of TfL's precarious financial position.

As for reducing buses by about one third, I'd put it at fewer than 5%, if you mean bus routes within the Circle Line area, roughly, or about 2% overall in London Buses terms.

Hardly, the 36 operates solely from NX, the 88 operates solely from SW and the 148 operates solely from S and they all seem to be run reliably.

 

[317 forever]

Exactly!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hardly, the 36 operates solely from NX, the 88 operates solely from SW and the 148 operates solely from S and they all seem to be run reliably.

I think Busaholic is reflecting on long former through routes like route 8, which used to run from Bow Church to Willesden Garage. It worked by AC & BW which are of course now part of Metroline & Stagecoach respectively.

 

[Busaholic]

This topic was touched on by Val Shawcross when she appeared in front of the London Assembly last week. There are three major pieces of work that TfL are doing at the moment in response to the new Mayoral policies.

Firstly there will be a "bus network review" in the Autumn.

- a desire to "rebalance" the network between inner and outer London
- aim is to deal with growing demand where it exists
- to work with the boroughs and other politicians to identify problem areas and concerns and missing links.
- to ensure there are effective bus services to essential public services / health facilities
- to ensure development areas have bus links *in advance* of developments being finished and occupied.
- to ensure clean buses are deployed on corridors and in areas with poor air quality
- to deal with the issues raised by the proposed expansion of the ULEZ.

She also said the Hopper ticket should allow better utilisation of the bus network, raise its efficiency and allow people not to be stuck waiting for one through bus but to change en route.

Secondly there are Oxford St issues.

Apparently the pedestrianisation work is being looked at in 3 phases.

TCR - Oxford Circus
Oxford Circus - Selfridges
Selfridges - Marble Arch

The last of the above may not happen before 2020 as it is much more difficult to do.

Val said that she felt that TfL "had got stuck in a rut" over bus service planning and the ramifications for Central London if you have very frequent and overlapping radial services all trying to get to / through Zone 1. Seems a massive process is now underway to "comb out" (her words) the radial routes to rationalise them, reducing resources on them, reroute them and cut them short of Zone 1. This will be done *before* Crossrail opens in 2018 so expect massive, seismic changes to remove a lot of buses from Zone 1 and its approaches. Consultation is expected by end 2016 on the bus changes. It is also clear that there is no intention to simply reroute services down side / parallel roads. The Hopper ticket was also cited as now giving TfL additional options on service planning with far more enforced interchange for people making what are now direct journeys.

Finally the other really important thing she said was that TfL are being forced by City Hall to "very rapidly" speed up the renewal of the bus fleet to get cleaner, more modern buses into service quickly. NB4Ls won't be removed from service or withdrawn early. The remaining 195 on order will also be delivered and put into service.

If you take the three big themes above you can see that there may be enormous changes on the way. Note that some will happen *before* Crossrail opens in 2018 so that buses are removed from Oxford St prior to a big increase in pedestrian flows as expected from Crossrail stations.

I seriously wonder how much Ms Shawcross knows about London bus routes.
There has been a fantastic pruning of radial routes into central London over the last forty years, both on number of routes and on the frequency of services on those routes. Forty years ago, for instance, four routes plied between Stratford and Aldgate, another four between Camden Town and Victoria via Charing Cross Road, all gradually reduced to just the one route. Almost the only 'duplication' of note these days of any length is that of the 3 and the 159 between Brixton and Oxford Circus, and even here they use different Thames bridges en route and both routes carry long distance passengers because train/underground infrastructure in South London is so poor or overwhelmed. Hopper tickets are not going to help the passenger on one of these routes who have already taken in excess of an hour on the bus at peak times before they ever reach Zone 1 and have to change!

There are far fewer buses in central London than there ever used to be. The expansion in the number of buses required to operate services has been fuelled by the ever-increasing traffic congestion, both without and within the Congestion Charge area, and the provision of buses
nearer to new and existing houses in the outer boroughs, some of which (but by no means all) have seen a general increase in the number of buses.

As for increasing the speed of renewal of the bus fleet, I'd like to know how this is going to be achieved i.e. who pays for it, and also are the manufacturers geared up to it? The alternatives to a straight diesel engine have hardly made a compulsive case so far, not least with the NBFL.

Lastly, for now, where are all these suitable places for buses to terminate away from their existing termini? I'd suggest they do not in the main exist, as has been found by coach operators seeking to bring tourists into London and having nowhere to park.

Actually, one last point. Events in Nice suggest to me that large-scale pedestrianisation of a long, straight road like Oxford Street, which at its western end would always be extremely busy is now highly unlikely to happen.

 

[Antman]

I think Busaholic is reflecting on long former through routes like route 8, which used to run from Bow Church to Willesden Garage. It worked by AC & BW which are of course now part of Metroline & Stagecoach respectively.

At one point the 8 was operated soley from BW when it went to Willesden Garage

 

[plcd1]

I seriously wonder how much Ms Shawcross knows about London bus routes.
There has been a fantastic pruning of radial routes into central London over the last forty years, both on number of routes and on the frequency of services on those routes. Forty years ago, for instance, four routes plied between Stratford and Aldgate, another four between Camden Town and Victoria via Charing Cross Road, all gradually reduced to just the one route. Almost the only 'duplication' of note these days of any length is that of the 3 and the 159 between Brixton and Oxford Circus, and even here they use different Thames bridges en route and both routes carry long distance passengers because train/underground infrastructure in South London is so poor or overwhelmed. Hopper tickets are not going to help the passenger on one of these routes who have already taken in excess of an hour on the bus at peak times before they ever reach Zone 1 and have to change!

There are far fewer buses in central London than there ever used to be. The expansion in the number of buses required to operate services has been fuelled by the ever-increasing traffic congestion, both without and within the Congestion Charge area, and the provision of buses
nearer to new and existing houses in the outer boroughs, some of which (but by no means all) have seen a general increase in the number of buses.

As for increasing the speed of renewal of the bus fleet, I'd like to know how this is going to be achieved i.e. who pays for it, and also are the manufacturers geared up to it? The alternatives to a straight diesel engine have hardly made a compulsive case so far, not least with the NBFL.

Lastly, for now, where are all these suitable places for buses to terminate away from their existing termini? I'd suggest they do not in the main exist, as has been found by coach operators seeking to bring tourists into London and having nowhere to park.

Actually, one last point. Events in Nice suggest to me that large-scale pedestrianisation of a long, straight road like Oxford Street, which at its western end would always be extremely busy is now highly unlikely to happen.

Oh I think she knows plenty. Whether you like what she's saying is a different matter.

In terms of "duplication" it depends where you define the overlaps. The 25 is overlapped almost the whole way - 86 then 425/205 then a short gap then the 8 and 242. And that's on top of the 25 being bolstered to a massive extent. I could go on but won't as I'm sure you can see what I'm saying.

I agree there are a great many issues that require resolution. There are not many easy answers and I think there will be considerable "fall out" once the public and employers finally start to think about the consequences. There are also very considerable risks for City Hall, Westminster City Council and TfL. It will be all too easy to make mistakes about a range of issues which then inhibit any later revision of what's introduced. It was telling that in TV interviews last week the spokesman for the West End retailers, who have been pushing for this for years, was suddenly cautious and worried about how shoppers and employees in and around Oxford St would get there in future. Well duh!

TfL would have to pay for greener vehicles. Fleet renewal never comes for free. I'd have thought was obvious. The issue is if TfL end up with inflated prices because of a sudden dash to buy new buses and also the impact on lease costs if vehicles are "dumped" earlier than expected. There are also risks about adopting newer technologies before they're mature - we'll soon see this with the mass Red Arrow switchover to electric single deckers.

Not sure I understand your last point. Road vehicles of any sort can be used as lethal weapons if anyone is so determined. The risk is always there and if someone wants to plough down a pedestrianised area they'll do so if there are no barriers to stop them. In the same way there's little to stop people armed with automatic weapons walking into a double decker bus and killing everyone or on a train or in a hotel or in a street. It's only the "spooks" trying to identify perpetrators and taking them out of circulation that prevents these things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually, one last point. Events in Nice suggest to me that large-scale pedestrianisation of a long, straight road like Oxford Street, which at its western end would always be extremely busy is now highly unlikely to happen.

Whyever do you think that? Nice had one thing missing - heavyweight lorry-stopping barriers. The only thing Nice will do to the project is ensure that Oxford St *is* provided with such barriers.

 

[NeilWatson]

Exactly!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hardly, the 36 operates solely from NX, the 88 operates solely from SW and the 148 operates solely from S and they all seem to be run reliably.

NX, SW, S etc - is there a glossary for these abbreviations?

 

[Deerfold]

Whyever do you think that? Nice had one thing missing - heavyweight lorry-stopping barriers. The only thing Nice will do to the project is ensure that Oxford St *is* provided with such barriers.

And then I suspect you'll need ways of bypassing them for emergency vehicles.

 

[Antman]

NX, SW, S etc - is there a glossary for these abbreviations?

New Cross, Stockwell and Shepherds Bush

 

[317 forever]

At one point the 8 was operated soley from BW when it went to Willesden Garage

I remember that as having been between 1982 and 1991. It meant some very late journeys back to Bow at night prior to the expansion of Night bus routes.

 

[Bookd]

The suggestion of all routes crossing Central London was the basis of the old Green Line network. Originally the routes were all terminating radial routes, but terminating and lay over in the centre caused so much chaos that they were linked to run through. By the end this system was stopped partly because traffic congestion on the inward part of the journey made timekeeping on the outward part impossible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And then I suspect you'll need ways of bypassing them for emergency vehicles.

Not hard to provide a big metal gate. This has all been done before.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Antman]

Not hard to provide a big metal gate. This has all been done before.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

But then there are practical issues such as ensuring these gates do not delay emergency vehicles.

I think we need to careful we don't go overboard, as horrendous as what happened in Nice was there are a whole host of places all over the country where something similar could happen, fortunately there are very few people minded to do such a thing.

 

[philjo]

Seems to be a daft idea to me.
The main attraction of the Oxford street shops is that you can catch a bus immediately outside the main stores to a number of different destinations including all of the main railway stations. Much less hassle than trying to cram back into Oxford circus tube station.
I quite often arrive by tube but after visiting M&S or John Lewis will catch a bus outside - usually the 55 to farringdon or the 10/390/73 to Kings cross.

There is only a limited capacity to divert services via wigmore Street though maybe one Kings cross service could run via regent Street & euston Road so still serving Oxford circus area - possibly the 10 which would then run via piccadilly to knightsbridge

the 73 could be diverted via Baker Street so it would still service Selfridges - though it would then duplicate the 30 King Cross to Marble arch so that could be amended.
some of these could be implemented to reduce the number of actual buses running along oxford Street whilst retaining through services from the key areas.


A better idea to reduce the pollution would be to wire up the street for trolleybuses and ban any non-electric vehicles (except for the emergency services). if the buses are bi-mode then they can use the power in the central area - probably Kings Cross/euston to Marble arch would cover 10/73/390 and extend it to Holborn/farringdon to cover 55 etc & probably to Victoria.

 

[deltic]

Seems to be a daft idea to me.
The main attraction of the Oxford street shops is that you can catch a bus immediately outside the main stores to a number of different destinations including all of the main railway stations. Much less hassle than trying to cram back into Oxford circus tube station.
I quite often arrive by tube but after visiting M&S or John Lewis will catch a bus outside - usually the 55 to farringdon or the 10/390/73 to Kings cross.

There is only a limited capacity to divert services via wigmore Street though maybe one Kings cross service could run via regent Street & euston Road so still serving Oxford circus area - possibly the 10 which would then run via piccadilly to knightsbridge

the 73 could be diverted via Baker Street so it would still service Selfridges - though it would then duplicate the 30 King Cross to Marble arch so that could be amended.
some of these could be implemented to reduce the number of actual buses running along oxford Street whilst retaining through services from the key areas.


A better idea to reduce the pollution would be to wire up the street for trolleybuses and ban any non-electric vehicles (except for the emergency services). if the buses are bi-mode then they can use the power in the central area - probably Kings Cross/euston to Marble arch would cover 10/73/390 and extend it to Holborn/farringdon to cover 55 etc & probably to Victoria.

With Crossrail - Oxford Circus tube will be less crammed. The reason for getting rid of buses out of Oxford Street is not just air quality but safety. Having electric buses doesnt tackle safety. The pavements in many areas cant cope with volumes of people a situation that will be made worse when Crossrail pumps more people into the area.

Oxford Street VIP days shows the attractiveness of closing Oxford St to all traffic with huge numbers visiting.

An alternative solution that London Buses dont like but to my mind would work is to remove all traffic from Oxford Street at weekends from 10am to 6pm and during the summer holiday period from 10am to 5pm. This would provide a visitor friendly environment but allow most peak time bus travelers access to the West End and prevent Oxford Street be coming dead in the evenings.

 

[Antman]

Seems to be a daft idea to me.
The main attraction of the Oxford street shops is that you can catch a bus immediately outside the main stores to a number of different destinations including all of the main railway stations. Much less hassle than trying to cram back into Oxford circus tube station.
I quite often arrive by tube but after visiting M&S or John Lewis will catch a bus outside - usually the 55 to farringdon or the 10/390/73 to Kings cross.

There is only a limited capacity to divert services via wigmore Street though maybe one Kings cross service could run via regent Street & euston Road so still serving Oxford circus area - possibly the 10 which would then run via piccadilly to knightsbridge

the 73 could be diverted via Baker Street so it would still service Selfridges - though it would then duplicate the 30 King Cross to Marble arch so that could be amended.
some of these could be implemented to reduce the number of actual buses running along oxford Street whilst retaining through services from the key areas.


A better idea to reduce the pollution would be to wire up the street for trolleybuses and ban any non-electric vehicles (except for the emergency services). if the buses are bi-mode then they can use the power in the central area - probably Kings Cross/euston to Marble arch would cover 10/73/390 and extend it to Holborn/farringdon to cover 55 etc & probably to Victoria.

Doing nothing would be daft, as has been mentioned the pavements cannot cope with the volumes at busy times as it is and if Crossrail brings more people into the area? Electric vehicles are nice but they're not an answer to this particular problem.

 

[Mikey C]

With Crossrail - Oxford Circus tube will be less crammed. The reason for getting rid of buses out of Oxford Street is not just air quality but safety. Having electric buses doesnt tackle safety. The pavements in many areas cant cope with volumes of people a situation that will be made worse when Crossrail pumps more people into the area.

Oxford Street VIP days shows the attractiveness of closing Oxford St to all traffic with huge numbers visiting.

An alternative solution that London Buses dont like but to my mind would work is to remove all traffic from Oxford Street at weekends from 10am to 6pm and during the summer holiday period from 10am to 5pm. This would provide a visitor friendly environment but allow most peak time bus travelers access to the West End and prevent Oxford Street be coming dead in the evenings.

Oxford Street, before the likes of Bluewater/Lakeside and the Westfields were built was surely busier than it is now, and the pavements (which were narrower in those days) seemed to cope?

The VIP days may attract extract visitors, but once the novelty wears off, the regular extra numbers won't be that much higher. As for Crossrail, I can't imagine many people from Shenfield or Reading/Maidenhead coming into Oxford Street to do their shopping.

 

[jon0844]

With Crossrail - Oxford Circus tube will be less crammed. The reason for getting rid of buses out of Oxford Street is not just air quality but safety. Having electric buses doesnt tackle safety. The pavements in many areas cant cope with volumes of people a situation that will be made worse when Crossrail pumps more people into the area.

Oxford Street VIP days shows the attractiveness of closing Oxford St to all traffic with huge numbers visiting.

An alternative solution that London Buses dont like but to my mind would work is to remove all traffic from Oxford Street at weekends from 10am to 6pm and during the summer holiday period from 10am to 5pm. This would provide a visitor friendly environment but allow most peak time bus travelers access to the West End and prevent Oxford Street be coming dead in the evenings.

If you had to do something, why not make the whole street pedestrianised but run two trams right through the middle. Then for the roads crossing, you have full width crossings (as you'll see in many European cities) with lots of crossing signs and countdown timers (as well as timers showing how long until the next green).

People can then connect to buses at each end, or also at Oxford Circus assuming Regent Street isn't also going to be pedestrianised.

I actually think that could work, as people can then go up and down the street to connect to buses as required, or just to get to/from other shops.

You might even then be able to create fast lanes for pedestrians and for bikes.

 

[Mikey C]

If you had to do something, why not make the whole street pedestrianised but run two trams right through the middle. Then for the roads crossing, you have full width crossings (as you'll see in many European cities) with lots of crossing signs and countdown timers (as well as timers showing how long until the next green).

People can then connect to buses at each end, or also at Oxford Circus assuming Regent Street isn't also going to be pedestrianised.

I actually think that could work, as people can then go up and down the street to connect to buses as required, or just to get to/from other shops.

You might even then be able to create fast lanes for pedestrians and for bikes.

One of the problems with terminating buses at the ends of Oxford Street, is that there is nowhere for them to stand. Effectively you'd need two sizeable new bus stations, one at either end, or several smaller but still sizeable ones

 

[jon0844]

One of the problems with terminating buses at the ends of Oxford Street, is that there is nowhere for them to stand. Effectively you'd need two sizeable new bus stations, one at either end, or several smaller but still sizeable ones

Would you need to have a stand for buses to start, as against just redesigning some bus stops to allow people to board buses that will pass through (e.g. from Edgware Road down to Park Lane, and New Oxford Street/Tottenham Court Road.

And of course buses just passing north to south along Regent Street.

You'll then just have stops for Oxford Street East, West and Central and use the tram to connect them.

 

[fgwrich]

Is shuttling between Leeds and Bradford (until next weekend) that terribke a fate?

Not really, they seem to do a fairly decent job of that run but it's taken First something like 8-10 years to finally find a suitable purpose for these things, after the well known and publicised issues of York & Swansea.

But somewhere like this could equally prove a fairly useful purpose for these things - Too costly and time consuming to install a tram, but wanting to remove all buses from the route. It's nearly a trolleybus, and if you provided turn around spots at each end of the route, could do rather well to handle the large shopping crowds.

Or maybe its just me?

 

[Jonny]

One of the problems with terminating buses at the ends of Oxford Street, is that there is nowhere for them to stand. Effectively you'd need two sizeable new bus stations, one at either end, or several smaller but still sizeable ones

Or, send them in a loop involving (sufficiently wide) side streets. That is easily done.

 

[Deerfold]

Or, send them in a loop involving (sufficiently wide) side streets. That is easily done.

Which side streets are these?

 

[telstarbox]

TfL consultation now open.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/oxford-street/?cid=oxford-street

 

[matt_world2004]

Maybe tfl should do something like the heathrow free fare zone for off peak tube journeys made between marble arch and Tottenham Court Road with charges being split between local businesses

 

[Busaholic]

TfL consultation now open.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/oxford-street/?cid=oxford-street

If the consultation process is anything like that for the Oxford Street and surrounding area bus routes, then I wouldn't waste any effort in challenging the views being expressed. In the case of the bus routes, even before the consultation process was closed TfL had stated that Borismasters made surplus by changes to the 73 route etc were going to be used elsewhere. Lo and behold, all changes that were 'consulted' on are going ahead, apart from the one possible expansion (of the 23 to Wembley!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me it needs a tram and cycle lane down the middle (with suitably positioned barriers to block pedicabs which are nothing but a nuisance). No buses, and definitely no taxis.

Indeed, making it a Red Route (so preventing the taxis and pedicabs stopping other than in ranks and laybys) would probably improve it substantially on its own.

 

[HSTEd]

If we had trolleybuses I would suggest a bored tunnel underneath it