Oxford to Newcastle via Manchester & Bradford ?

[General Zod]

Good afternoon all !
I have to go to a conference at Newcastle University and thought it would be a good opportunity to travel on some lines which I rarely frequent. I've checked the routeing guide and it suggests the following map routes as one of my possible route combos from OXF-NEW :

MW + LY + NE

I am not too confident in my interpretation of the RG so can I assume that using the above maps ; returning from Newcastle to Oxford, I can travel Newcastle - York - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Oxford ? Will I get the chance to travel on both Northern and TPE trains ?

Thanking you,
General Zod

 

[Bayum]

Good afternoon all !
I have to go to a conference at Newcastle University and thought it would be a good opportunity to travel on some lines which I rarely frequent. I've checked the routeing guide and it suggests the following map routes as one of my possible route combos from OXF-NEW :

MW + LY + NE

I am not too confident in my interpretation of the RG so can I assume that using the above maps ; returning from Newcastle to Oxford, I can travel Newcastle - York - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Oxford ? Will I get the chance to travel on both Northern and TPE trains ?

Thanking you,
General Zod

I'm not sure if you can do that or not...

But newcastle - york, gives you the chance to travel with XC, FTPE, NXEC, Leeds - York: FTPE, and Northern Leeds - Bradford: Northern, Bradford - Manchester: Northern, and Manchester - Oxford, I assume is XC??

 

[General Zod]

I was thining about the following path :

Oxford (XC) -> Manchester Piccadilly

Manchester Piccadilly (TP) -> Huddersfield

Huddersfield (NT) -> Bradford Interchange -> Leeds

Leeds (XC) -> Newcastle

OR

Leeds (NT | TP) -> York (TP |XC| NXEC) -> Newcastle

Would be nice to do some sightseeing and line bashing at the same time.

Zod

 

[John @ home]

I've checked the routeing guide and it suggests the following map routes as one of my possible route combos from OXF-NEW :

MW + LY + NE

can I assume that using the above maps ; returning from Newcastle to Oxford, I can travel Newcastle - York - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Oxford ?

Yes. MW + LY + NE is indeed a valid combination.
NE allows Newcastle - York via Darlington or Sunderland. Then York - Leeds - Bradford via Harrogate or Church Fenton.
LY allows Leeds or Bradford - Manchester via Halifax (Northern's route). Leeds - Halifax via Huddersfield is also allowed. Huddersfield - Manchester via Stalybridge is not allowed (TPE's route).
MW allows a number of different Manchester - Birmingham - Oxford routes.

Will I get the chance to travel on both Northern and TPE trains ?

Yes. You can use TPE from Newcastle or Middlesbrough to Huddersfield and, with this combination, you must use Northern across the Pennines from Halifax to Manchester.

John

 

[OwlMan]

Yes. MW + LY + NE is indeed a valid combination.
NE allows Newcastle - York via Darlington or Sunderland. Then York - Leeds - Bradford via Harrogate or Church Fenton.
LY allows Leeds or Bradford - Manchester via Halifax (Northern's route). Leeds - Halifax via Huddersfield is also allowed. Huddersfield - Manchester via Stalybridge is not allowed (TPE's route).
MW allows a number of different Manchester - Birmingham - Oxford routes.


Yes. You can use TPE from Newcastle or Middlesbrough to Huddersfield and, with this combination, you must use Northern across the Pennines from Halifax to Manchester.

John

Yes but you can use Manchester - Huddersfield via Stalybridge using combinations MW + Tv +TP or MW + TP

Peter

 

[Olympian]

And, according to The Trainline, you can also use a whole plethora of different routes between Manchester and Oxford with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket, including...

Manchester -> Bolton -> Blackburn -> Preston -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford

Manchester -> Chester -> Birmingham -> Oxford

Manchester -> Shrewsbury -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford

Manchester -> Hereford -> Oxford

Manchester -> Hunts Cross -> Sandhills -> Ormskirk -> Preston -> Birmingham -> Oxford (yes, in that order!)

Manchester -> Newport Gwent -> Didcot Parkway -> Oxford

Manchester -> Bristol -> Southampton -> Oxford


Are these really all valid routes or has The Trainline got it completely wrong?!!

 

[General Zod]

And, according to The Trainline, you can also use a whole plethora of different routes between Manchester and Oxford with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket, including...

Manchester -> Bolton -> Blackburn -> Preston -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford

Manchester -> Chester -> Birmingham -> Oxford

Manchester -> Shrewsbury -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford

Manchester -> Hereford -> Oxford

Manchester -> Hunts Cross -> Sandhills -> Ormskirk -> Preston -> Birmingham -> Oxford (yes, in that order!)

Manchester -> Newport Gwent -> Didcot Parkway -> Oxford

Manchester -> Bristol -> Southampton -> Oxford


Are these really all valid routes or has The Trainline got it completely wrong?!!

Woooaaaaa !!! Are these routes really valid ?! Newcastle > Manchester > Bristol > Southampton > Oxford would be a classic if permitted That would take the best part of a day !

 

[John @ home]

Are these really all valid routes (between Manchester and Oxford with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket)

Permitted routes between Newcastle and Oxford are:
LONDON
ER+LY+MW
ER+LY+TV+MW
ER+MW
MW+BP+MM+NE
MW+TP
MW+TV+TP

Manchester -> Bolton -> Blackburn -> Preston -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford

None of the maps BP, ER, LY, MM, MW, NE, TP or TV show a Bolton - Blackburn link, so this is NOT a permitted route with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket.

Manchester -> Chester -> Birmingham -> Oxford

Chester does not appear on any of maps BP, ER, LY, MM, MW, NE, TP or TV, so this is NOT a permitted route with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket.

Manchester -> Shrewsbury -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford

Shrewsbury appears on map MW only, but it is linked to Wolverhampton only. On reaching Shrewsbury, it would be necessary to double back, which is not allowed. So this is NOT a permitted route with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket.

Manchester -> Hereford -> Oxford

Hereford does not appear on any of maps BP, ER, LY, MM, MW, NE, TP or TV, so this is NOT a permitted route with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket.

Manchester -> Hunts Cross -> Sandhills -> Ormskirk -> Preston -> Birmingham -> Oxford (yes, in that order!)

None of the maps BP, ER, LY, MM, MW, NE, TP or TV show a Sandhills - Ormskirk - Preston link, so this is NOT a permitted route with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket.

Manchester -> Newport Gwent -> Didcot Parkway -> Oxford

Newport Gwent does not appear on any of maps BP, ER, LY, MM, MW, NE, TP or TV, so this is NOT a permitted route with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket.

Manchester -> Bristol -> Southampton -> Oxford

Bristol does not appear on any of maps BP, ER, LY, MM, MW, NE, TP or TV, so this is NOT a permitted route with a Newcastle - Oxford route "not London" ticket.

John

 

[mathmo]

Valid routes on Newcastle - Oxford are: LONDON, ER+LY+MW, ER+LY+TV+MW, ER+MW, MW+BP+MM+NE, MW+TP, MW+TV+TP.

Just looking at routes via Manchester, on a Not London ticket (and oversimplifying):
ER+LY+MW allows via Wilmslow, Stoke or Warrington, then direct to Birmingham
ER+LY+TV+MW adds via Rugby and Birmingham or Nuneaton and Coventry
ER+MW doesn't add to the above
MW+BP+MM+NE isn't via Manchester
MW+TP and MW+TV+TP just add a via Huddersfield route to get to Manchester

Basically the Trainline is wrong and those routes aren't permitted. I may have missed a few minor routes above but am pretty sure I'm right!

Edit: John@Home got there first!

 

[Olympian]

This is all very intersting. These same routes are vaid on Nationalrail.co.uk (same data as Trainline?) but most aren't on National Express East Coast although the latter allows

Newcastle -> York -> Blackburn -> Bolton -> Manchester -> Oxford
Manchester -> Preston -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford
Newcastle -> York -> Preston -> Wolverhampton -> Oxford

None of which are permitted from what you're saying.

Also if you put in "via Blake Street" it gives

Newcastle -> Birmingham -> Blake Street -> Birmingham -> Oxford

with a clear case of doubling back!

So it's not just The Trainline that's got it's data wrong, and what happens if I buy a ticket with an itinerary that's not allowed? Surely I've entered into a contract, purchased with good faith, relied on what it's telling me is correct etc. etc. and entitled to make the journey given to me?? Presumably innocent members of the public are being sold tickets for journeys that aren't allowed every day. How many more of these errors exist and should we not be reporting them?

 

[yorkie]

The different systems use their own interpretation of the RG.

It's not a case of one being "valid on Thetrainline" or "Valid on NXEC" (NXEC is one operator that uses Atos origin anyway) it's a case of them interpreting it differently.

As for the doubling-back thing, it can be useful to allow yourself more time between trains on AP tickets

 

[Olympian]

The different systems use their own interpretation of the RG.

It's not a case of one being "valid on Thetrainline" or "Valid on NXEC" (NXEC is one operator that uses Atos origin anyway) it's a case of them interpreting it differently.

As for the doubling-back thing, it can be useful to allow yourself more time between trains on AP tickets

So how can Trainline interpret Newcastle - Oxford as being valid via Hereford or Bristol, for example, when other online retailers don't? Surely it's a pretty major error to make! And does it make it valid if I buy on Trainline? (see below)

...what happens if I buy a ticket with an itinerary that's not allowed? Surely I've entered into a contract, purchased with good faith, relied on what it's telling me is correct etc. etc. and entitled to make the journey given to me?? Presumably innocent members of the public are being sold tickets for journeys that aren't allowed every day. How many more of these errors exist and should we not be reporting them?

 

[John @ home]

how can Trainline interpret Newcastle - Oxford as being valid via Hereford or Bristol, for example, when other online retailers don't?

When I use http://www.thetrainline.com to ask for a return from Oxford to Newcastle via
Bristol Temple Meads or
Bristol Parkway or
Hereford
I get the error message:

We cannot find any services that meet your request.

 

[yorkie]

And does it make it valid if I buy on Trainline? (see below)

I'd say that if you can get thetrainline to give you an itinerary via a route not listed in the RG, and you bring it with you, then you are entering into a contract for that journey and they can't charge you.

If you get reservations then that is even better.

 

[Olympian]

When I use http://www.thetrainline.com to ask for a return from Oxford to Newcastle via
Bristol Temple Meads or
Bristol Parkway or
Hereford
I get the error message:

Try a single from Newcastle to Oxford then - it appears that you don't get the strange routes either on singles from Oxford to Newcastle, or returns either way round between the two.