Oyster and Crossrail

[Mojo]

So paper travelcards can be used on the heathrow tfl rail? But it wont be in zone 6 for pay as you go fare purposes? What a mess.

I don’t think it’s a mess; it’s a better option than in many other places whereby the fare is higher even if you have a Multi-ride Pass, at least a lot of people will benefit in that they are not going to pay more at all compared to LU.

What is a bit of a mess however is the off peak fare to Paddington is less than to any other station in Zone 1.

 

[JaJaWa]

So paper travelcards can be used on the heathrow tfl rail? But it wont be in zone 6 for pay as you go fare purposes? What a mess.

That’s what it sounds like but very confusing - is this confirmed, or is it just in 1-6 for capping purposes?

 

[matt_world2004]

That’s what it sounds like but very confusing - is this confirmed, or is it just in 1-6 for capping purposes?

It sounds like they have tried to segregate the comnuter and tourist traffic but considering the priority should be simplicity for tourist routes this seems unnesescaryily complicated.

 

[Mojo]

It sounds like they have tried to segregate the comnuter and tourist traffic but considering the priority should be simplicity for tourist routes this seems unnesescaryily complicated.

So are you suggesting that customers pay more by them not allowing caps or Travelcards?

 

[Clip]

It sounds like they have tried to segregate the comnuter and tourist traffic but considering the priority should be simplicity for tourist routes this seems unnesescaryily complicated.

I see no problem for charging a premium for the service to Heathrow - passengers will still have a choice for which service they use. Not a mess at all.

 

[matt_world2004]

So are you suggesting that customers pay more by them not allowing caps or Travelcards?

A flat fare for journeys outside zone 1. With a stabdard zone 1 premium would be better imo with a marginal cap increase over zone 6 journeys just to demonstrate to the public that it is its not a zone 6 station. Achieves the same aim but sinpler


With the current fare structure Breaking the journey at ealing broadway will also result in a cheaper fare

£11.30 touching in and out at hayes and harlington in peak compared to £12.10 doing a through journey. Depending on the time you arrive at paddington you may not even be delayed on your journey doing it.

 

[zoneking]

I don't understand, will my paper zones 1-6 travelcard be valid to Heathrow or not? I do not use oyster or PAYG.

 

[Clip]

Are they going for actual gates then? I presumed they would have gone for an Athens-style “open gate line” to allow people to pass through that are:

• Changing terminal
• Buying onboard Heathrow Express

Will they be providing free tickets to people that wish to change terminal then? That surely negates the point of the gateline.

Athens has barriers now

I don't understand, will my paper zones 1-6 travelcard be valid to Heathrow or not? I do not use oyster or PAYG.

I dont believe it will unless you buy a supplement or go via the Piccadilly line.

 

[matt_world2004]

I don't understand, will my paper zones 1-6 travelcard be valid to Heathrow or not? I do not use oyster or PAYG.

Currently that is not clear.

 

[Non Multi]

Currently that is not clear.

Isn't this the answer?

As part of the integrated service, daily fare capping for Oyster and contactless and weekly fare capping for contactless will apply, with travelcards that cover Zone 6 able to be used on services to Heathrow.

 

[PeterC]

I don't understand, will my paper zones 1-6 travelcard be valid to Heathrow or not? I do not use oyster or PAYG.

As part of the integrated service, daily fare capping for Oyster and contactless and weekly fare capping for contactless will apply, with travelcards that cover Zone 6 able to be used on services to Heathrow.

I don't see anything in that quote that says that a travelcard printed on card is any different to one loaded on Oyster.

The outstanding question is Freedom Pass and 60+ availibility.

 

[Samuel88]

I don't see anything in that quote that says that a travelcard printed on card is any different to one loaded on Oyster.

The outstanding question is Freedom Pass and 60+ availibility.

The press statement said that all concessions will be valid on all sections of Crossrail.

 

[matt_world2004]

Isn't this the answer?

Ooh missed that bit cheers.

 

[PeterC]

The press statement said that all concessions will be valid on all sections of Crossrail.

I can see a few older Reading commuters arranging fake London addresses then.

 

[plcd1]

For those who want some extra detail here is the Mayoral Direction that the Mayor has issued to TfL in respect of fares to / from Heathrow.

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/md2245_heathrow_signed_pdf.pdf

I haven't read it yet in detail so I'll refrain from commenting.

 

[plcd1]

I don't undersand, will my paper zones 1-6 travelcard be valid to Heathrow or not? I do not use oyster or PAYG.

Yes it will. The Mayoral Direction makes this very clear.

1.8 The Elizabeth line train stations at Heathrow will be placed in Zone 6, the same zone as the Heathrow Piccadilly line stations, though special fares will apply on TfL Rail services. Travelcards, Oyster PAYG and Contactless, the one-day and seven-day PAYG caps and all TfL concessions, including the Freedom Pass, will become valid for travel.

 

[matt_world2004]

Yes it will. The Mayoral Direction makes this very clear.

Reading that mayoral decision then appears to indicate that paper tickets with a destination of zone 6 would be valid on tfl rail to heathrow.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I was reading the latest Crossrail article on London Reconnections the other day; somewhere among all the detail about all the various snags currently being ironed out was a suggestion that Heathrow Airport Holdings was still seeking to impose a premium of 60p-90p per passenger travelling between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow. I guess what has now been announced is a bit of a fudge to allow some of that premium to be collected but without making the use of paper Travelcards unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Interesting that they are going to introduce fares available on paper ticket from West Drayton to Heathrow, priced at the same level as those from Hayes & Harlington. Currently no such fares exist. It seems to me that this will introduce an opportunity to make a small saving with split ticketing for certain journeys, since fares to West Drayton from the Reading area (as far west as Goring & Streatley/Theale/Bramley/Wokingham) are priced a little bit cheaper than to Hayes & Harlington.

 

[matt_world2004]

Interesting that they are going to introduce fares available on paper ticket from West Drayton to Heathrow, priced at the same level as those from Hayes & Harlington. Currently no such fares exist. It seems to me that this will introduce an opportunity to make a small saving with split ticketing for certain journeys, since fares to West Drayton from the Reading area (as far west as Goring & Streatley/Theale/Bramley/Wokingham) are priced a little bit cheaper than to Hayes & Harlington.

I wonder if this in anticipation for western rail access?

With heathrow Airport holdings staff and people based there getting an 75% discount would this mean the creation of a fourth crossrail western end only priv? And would that priv be only for journeys from heathrow or would it be valid from other journeys

From the report, it sounds like TfL are getting a direct financial contribution from Heathrow Airport Holdings for the 75% discount to continue. Which if true would create a tax liability for the employees who apply for discounts under this scheme.

Also currently heathrow staff travel cards are valid on some first slough bus services which is going to be difficult to verify if they are on oyster.

 

[bicbasher]

Are the 'special fares' on the eastern side of the Elizabeth line up to Shenfield also being replaced with standard TfL fares? Currently I'm charged the NR fare If I'm travelling from Forest Hill to Romford via Canada Water and Stratford which would see the off-peak fare reduced from £2.60 to £1.50, despite using all TfL services.

 

[Calchas]

Also currently heathrow staff travel cards are valid on some first slough bus services which is going to be difficult to verify if they are on oyster.

Could be issued as a two-part Oyster card and paper card, like a TfL annual travelcard is.

 

[MikeWh]

Are the 'special fares' on the eastern side of the Elizabeth line up to Shenfield also being replaced with standard TfL fares? Currently I'm charged the NR fare If I'm travelling from Forest Hill to Romford via Canada Water and Stratford which would see the off-peak fare reduced from £2.60 to £1.50, despite using all TfL services.

You'll need to ask the DfT about fares on the lines out of Liverpool Street. They are the people who told TfL they couldn't just introduce their standard fares. Also, the off-peak NR zone 2-6 fare is £2.90, so you are saving 30p.

 

[plcd1]

Are the 'special fares' on the eastern side of the Elizabeth line up to Shenfield also being replaced with standard TfL fares? Currently I'm charged the NR fare If I'm travelling from Forest Hill to Romford via Canada Water and Stratford which would see the off-peak fare reduced from £2.60 to £1.50, despite using all TfL services.

I very much doubt this. The fares differ because of conditions imposed on TfL by the DfT as part of the Crossrail Act but also applied more widely now. These prevent TfL from "undercutting" fares set by a TOC that may serve some of the stations on a given route (e.g. Shenfield) or for TfL to create a situation where split tickets become viable. TfL did provide some commentary on this in a "fares advice" paper to the Mayor that was released alongside a Fares Revision Mayoral Decision a couple of years ago. I've dug out the paper and link is below. Annex B on page 11 of the pdf is the one to read. Note the final point about the "Secretary of State can update this guidance at any time".

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/def... fares revision paper advice to Mayor PDF.pdf

We are in a slightly different position out west because TfL's farescale was adopted by FGW in the early days of PAYG being extended. I've no idea how or why this happened but it means TfL and GWR are "on the same page" as far as West Drayton. What is not clear to me is whether MTR Crossrail gain any pricing responsibilities west of West Drayton or whether GWR retain the fare setting role for places like Slough and Maidenhead. No way will Reading's fare setting be ceded to TfL as that would affect far too many fares across the country. Similar precedents were set by Greater Anglia remaining responsible for Shenfield's fares and LNWR being responsible at Watford. I simply can't see how Crossrail's fares on the route to Reading can diverge in any way from GWR's fares which creates all sorts of issues for the sorts of fare levels that Oyster will handle in future.

 

[plcd1]

Small update about the Heathrow staff travel concession issue via this link (courtesy of reply on London Reconnections blog).

https://www.heathrow.com/company/heathrow-jobs/commuting-to-heathrow

Note the "deal" on rail fares only lasts until end 2019 so I assume a wider negotiation is ongoing given the step change in service provision with TfL being responsible for more services post Dec 2019. Also no answer on the techy questions about card format / how it works with Oyster.

 

[JaJaWa]

Small update about the Heathrow staff travel concession issue via this link (courtesy of reply on London Reconnections blog).

https://www.heathrow.com/company/heathrow-jobs/commuting-to-heathrow

Note the "deal" on rail fares only lasts until end 2019 so I assume a wider negotiation is ongoing given the step change in service provision with TfL being responsible for more services post Dec 2019. Also no answer on the techy questions about card format / how it works with Oyster.

Also that Heathrow Express won't accept Oyster until the end of 2018 despite TfL Rail / Connect accepting it from May 2018. So presumably the gates will be left open.

 

[matt_world2004]

Also that Heathrow Express won't accept Oyster until the end of 2018 despite TfL Rail / Connect accepting it from May 2018. So presumably the gates will be left open.

The gates don't even need to be left open there is a gap in the middle of them to allow free inter terminal transfers, I presume floor signage will demonstrate this. I guess the gates are there to remind passengers to tap in.

 

[JonathanH]

I very much doubt this. The fares differ because of conditions imposed on TfL by the DfT as part of the Crossrail Act but also applied more widely now. These prevent TfL from "undercutting" fares set by a TOC that may serve some of the stations on a given route (e.g. Shenfield) or for TfL to create a situation where split tickets become viable. TfL did provide some commentary on this in a "fares advice" paper to the Mayor that was released alongside a Fares Revision Mayoral Decision a couple of years ago. I've dug out the paper and link is below. Annex B on page 11 of the pdf is the one to read. Note the final point about the "Secretary of State can update this guidance at any time".

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/gla_migrate_files_destination/Appendix 1 2015 May fares revision paper advice to Mayor PDF.pdf

We are in a slightly different position out west because TfL's farescale was adopted by FGW in the early days of PAYG being extended. I've no idea how or why this happened but it means TfL and GWR are "on the same page" as far as West Drayton. What is not clear to me is whether MTR Crossrail gain any pricing responsibilities west of West Drayton or whether GWR retain the fare setting role for places like Slough and Maidenhead. No way will Reading's fare setting be ceded to TfL as that would affect far too many fares across the country. Similar precedents were set by Greater Anglia remaining responsible for Shenfield's fares and LNWR being responsible at Watford. I simply can't see how Crossrail's fares on the route to Reading can diverge in any way from GWR's fares which creates all sorts of issues for the sorts of fare levels that Oyster will handle in future.

On the Western side they still have about 18 months to sort out the fares as Crossrail services don't appear to go west of Airport Junction until December 2019.

Presumably all sorts of options are still being discussed. Is there any reason why the barriers (ie back end processing) at Paddington couldn't be set such that, for passengers touching in west of West Drayton touching out at Paddington would not contribute to a cap for the day? That would differentiate Crossrail and GWR fares from western stations and make it unattractive for people to move away from the DfT paper fare scales.

On the other hand, perhaps that creates the undercutting issue noted above.

The issues with fare extensions on the line to Gatwick must have alerted DfT/ GWR / TfL to be having some fairly complex discussions.

 

[plcd1]

On the Western side they still have about 18 months to sort out the fares as Crossrail services don't appear to go west of Airport Junction until December 2019.

Presumably all sorts of options are still being discussed. Is there any reason why the barriers (ie back end processing) at Paddington couldn't be set such that, for passengers touching in west of West Drayton touching out at Paddington would not contribute to a cap for the day? That would differentiate Crossrail and GWR fares from western stations and make it unattractive for people to move away from the DfT paper fare scales.

On the other hand, perhaps that creates the undercutting issue noted above.

The issues with fare extensions on the line to Gatwick must have alerted DfT/ GWR / TfL to be having some fairly complex discussions.

I think I posted earlier, or possibly in another thread, that TfL have a number of Oyster related projects in hand at present with completion due imminently for some of them. One of the project titles refers specifically to "Point to Zone" and the very limited description says it supports a "new fares model for the Elizabeth Line" so something is definitely being done to cope with whatever Crossrail throws up.

I am aware that a multi party working group on ticketing matters for Crossrail has been in existence for a long time. My guess is that when TfL and DfT reached agreement on TfL running more trains to Reading, better access to Heathrow and had to buy more class 345s that a least a set of ticketing principles were signed off at the same time at SoS / Mayor level. Those principles may well have existed in a "firm" level of detail to allow the various parties to proceed with ticketing system modifications that will kick in at the requisite time. My other guess is that other issues are also "in scope" for change from December this year when Crossrail reaches Farringdon and provides the first NR to NR Zone 1 interchange for through services. There's a load of issues over availabilities, routes and fare setting which become even more "nonsensical" once the Farringdon interchange opens so there is an opportunity to change things for the better this December and then build on that in Dec 2019. I may well be proved completely wrong in my musings but if nothing much was going to change then why have been people been talking for umpteen years and why is money being spent on system modifications?

 

[bb21]

The gates don't even need to be left open there is a gap in the middle of them to allow free inter terminal transfers, I presume floor signage will demonstrate this. I guess the gates are there to remind passengers to tap in.

That seems a silly way of doing it.

They could just install a good number of standalone readers with clear signage (very important) if people were supposed to be able to avoid them anyway, and leave the concourse unobstructed. The space would be much appreciated at busier times.