Oyster at Epsom from Monday

[MikeWh]

Details are rather sketchy at present because the project is being led by GTR. But TfL have confirmed that it's going live on Monday 25th. Not sure what fares are, though a Surrey Comet article suggests it's outside the zones.

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2019/02/oyster-at-epsom/

STOP PRESS!!!!!!!

Oyster will be accepted at Epsom from Monday 25th February. Details are a bit sketchy at present, especially as the fares are not yet in the publicly available fare-finder. However, we do have a quote from TfL:

Shashi Verma, Chief Technology Officer at Transport for London said:

We are delighted that, working with the DfT, GTR and South Western Railway, we have now been able to expand Oyster and contactless to cover services to Epsom station. Pay as you go with contactless and Oyster has helped revolutionise travel on Tube, rail and bus services across London, making them more convenient for all. We are now working with the DfT and train operating companies on expanding pay as you go to more stations across the GTR network, including Hertford North, Welwyn Garden City and Luton, throughout 2019.

https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/...o-travel-cards-and-freedom-pass-not-included/

Epsom station will become part of the Oyster card public transport scheme on Monday (February 25).

Southern Railway announced that seven new stations would be added to the Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG) scheme.

The stations added to the PAYG area were: Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport and Epsom.

Southern Railway said that Oyster card, contactless and mobile payments would be accepted at all seven stations with immediate effect, with the exception of Epsom station, where the scheme would come into effect on Monday (February 25).

Not quite sure why they are wibbling on about Merstham to Gatwick which have accepted Oyster for over 2 years now.

 

[alistairlees]

Details are rather sketchy at present because the project is being led by GTR. But TfL have confirmed that it's going live on Monday 25th. Not sure what fares are, though a Surrey Comet article suggests it's outside the zones.

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2019/02/oyster-at-epsom/

https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/...o-travel-cards-and-freedom-pass-not-included/

The POP and PAP fares are in the data. Epsom is not in zone 6 though.

 

[MikeWh]

The POP and PAP fares are in the data. Epsom is not in zone 6 though.

brfares data?

 

[alistairlees]

brfares data?

Fares data. I accidentally found it today. Doesn’t show on brfares.com though. The Epsom pop and pap fares have a valid from date of 25 February I expect - I was looking this morning and can’t quite remember.

 

[alistairlees]

Fares data. I accidentally found it today. Doesn’t show on brfares.com though. The Epsom pop and pap fares have a valid from date of 25 February I expect - I was looking this morning and can’t quite remember.

RSP fares feed available through DTD to be clear.

 

[MikeWh]

Fares data. I accidentally found it today. Doesn’t show on brfares.com though. The Epsom pop and pap fares have a valid from date of 25 February I expect - I was looking this morning and can’t quite remember.

I don't suppose you can do an extract of any pop/pap fares from Epsom to see what they're doing?

 

[swt_passenger]

Details are rather sketchy at present because the project is being led by GTR. But TfL have confirmed that it's going live on Monday 25th. Not sure what fares are, though a Surrey Comet article suggests it's outside the zones.

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2019/02/oyster-at-epsom/

https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/...o-travel-cards-and-freedom-pass-not-included/

Not quite sure why they are wibbling on about Merstham to Gatwick which have accepted Oyster for over 2 years now.

Perhaps they had some crossed wires with an explanation that Epsom should really have happened with the other 7 stations mentioned? Or in a rush they badly edited the story they first ran 2 years ago?

I take it “outside the zones” just means outside zones 1-6? Plenty of other stations are outside the normal 6 zones after all...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

From the information I can glean, Epsom is almost certainly not in Zone 6. I can't tell whether it's in the Zones at all, as SWR might have its own fare scale. But what I can tell is that fares are higher than those charged from the likes of Cheshunt and Dartford, which are within the Zones (just), but less than those charged from the likes of Broxbourne and Merstham, which are outside the Zones. It may be that Epsom is in Zone 9, say, with a special fare scale, or it may be that it's outside the Zones. I don't know yet and I suspect we won't know until nearer Monday. Very poor that there's not been a press release on this yet though.

 

[alistairlees]

I don't suppose you can do an extract of any pop/pap fares from Epsom to see what they're doing?

Sorry I haven’t got access to that right now.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

From the information I can glean, Epsom is almost certainly not in Zone 6. I can't tell whether it's in the Zones at all, as SWR might have its own fare scale.

Epsom is one stop outside zone 6 on both routes. I don't think SWR have a separate system for the place - I live here and I've never come across any price differential other than the "Southern only" fares which allow travel only via Ewell East.

 

[JonathanH]

Epsom is one stop outside zone 6 on both routes. I don't think SWR have a separate system for the place - I live here and I've never come across any price differential other than the "Southern only" fares which allow travel only via Ewell East.

Both stops (and indeed Stoneleigh) are outside the Greater London boundary so I don't see what the fact they are in Zone 6 has any particular bearing on what Epsom should be.

Of course, bringing Epsom into Oyster does make some journeys between the two Ewell lines a bit easier as Oyster will now be valid without the need to go via Wimbledon.

 

[IanD]

RSP fares feed available through DTD to be clear.

Clear as mud. Also POP and PAP. Why not explain these TLAs?

 

[JonathanH]

POP = Pay as you go off-peak single
PAP = Pay as you go peak single

Ticket type codes

 

[alistairlees]

Clear as mud. Also POP and PAP. Why not explain these TLAs?

Apologies - I was writing a quick reply from my phone

JonathanH has already explained POP and PAP. These are the ticket type codes that appear in the rail fares data to represent TfL PAYG (Pay As You Go) fares. They are for information only.

RSP = Rail Settlement Plan, the industry body that is responsible for distributing fares and other data, and ensuring that tickets are sold correctly and that revenue is apportioned between Train Operating Companies.

DTD = Data Transformation and Distribution, the service that distributes (nightly) much (not all) rail industry data, especially that for fares, schedules and the routeing guide. Some of this will have originated within Network Rail, and needs enhancing / adding to, hence the "transformation" part.

TLA = Three Letter Acronym

Brfares.com consumes the information from DTD, though only seems to display current fares. Hence my point that, although the information was in the fares feed from DTD, it wasn't displaying on brfares.com

 

[Aictos]

Does the above date also apply to Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City?

 

[si404]

If this comment is correct, then Z9 it is - the capping rates are the 1-9 caps.

The single fares, however, complicate things: are those Epsom-Z1 prices with LU (and thus 40p less than from zone 8 Dartford/Swanley), or without (and thus £1.40 more than Dartford/Swanley at peak times and £1.20 more off-peak)? That said fare scales complicate things, meaning it's perfectly possible for Epsom to be zone 9 and cheaper than zone 8 stations in Kent.

 

[MikeWh]

If this comment is correct, then Z9 it is - the capping rates are the 1-9 caps.

The single fares, however, complicate things: are those Epsom-Z1 prices with LU (and thus 40p less than from zone 8 Dartford/Swanley), or without (and thus £1.40 more than Dartford/Swanley at peak times and £1.20 more off-peak)? That said fare scales complicate things, meaning it's perfectly possible for Epsom to be zone 9 and cheaper than zone 8 stations in Kent.

Until I know who the contributor is I am not in a position to confirm or deny anything. The article in the Surrey Comet was clear that travelcards would not be valid at Epsom, but maybe they were refering to 1-6 travelcards.

 

[MikeWh]

Does the above date also apply to Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City?

Hertford North will be happening in the next few weeks. Welwyn Garden City is later.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Presumably the local MP will be particularly pleased with the EPS extension?

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably the local MP will be particularly pleased with the EPS extension?

Be interesting to see the local media reporting when it appears though. They seem to have been the main culprits in suggesting either Epsom could be put in Zone 6, or that Oyster would produce significant reductions compared to existing fares.

Which was either naive or pandering to a gullible audience, because the clear evidence of all the other extensions is almost the exact opposite...

 

[MikeWh]

If this comment is correct, then Z9 it is - the capping rates are the 1-9 caps.

The single fares, however, complicate things: are those Epsom-Z1 prices with LU (and thus 40p less than from zone 8 Dartford/Swanley), or without (and thus £1.40 more than Dartford/Swanley at peak times and £1.20 more off-peak)? That said fare scales complicate things, meaning it's perfectly possible for Epsom to be zone 9 and cheaper than zone 8 stations in Kent.

Epsom to Zone 1

Single PAYG fares – Adult
Peak: £9.00
Off-peak: £6.60

PAYG Capping – Adult
Anytime: £18.30
Off-peak: £12.90
Monday to Sunday (Contactless): £91.50

I still don't know who "James" is, so I can't confirm the likely authenticity of these fares. However, the capping prices are going to be interesting if they are true. £18.30/£12.90/£91.50 are indeed the zone 1-9 caps currently. The daily ones compare quite favourably with the current Epsom to zones 1-6 travelcard prices which are:

Anytime: £21.70 or £19.60 (Southern only)
Off-peak: £14.60 or £13.10 (Southern only)
Weekly: £72.90 or £68.10 (Southern only)

The weekly travelcard is much more expensive for zones 1-9, presumably because TfL weekly caps/travelcards are 5x the daily anytime cap.

 

[JonathanH]

BRFares has information for most destinations from Epsom but seemingly not for those in the 'Southern' area or outside the zones (e.g. Redhill, Watford Junction, Shenfield etc). Given the fares are set by South Western Railway, perhaps Southern haven't set the ones via Ewell East.

Epsom to West Croydon for example only has Oyster fares routed 'Clapham Junction not London' (i.e. the assumption is made that the journey is via Zone 2 rather than direct).

Epsom to London Terminals (ie Zone 1 NR) £7.30 peak / £5.10 single.

Not in TfL single fare finder yet.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

BRFares has information for most destinations from Epsom but seemingly not for those in the 'Southern' area or outside the zones (e.g. Redhill, Watford Junction, Shenfield etc). Given the fares are set by South Western Railway, perhaps Southern haven't set the ones via Ewell East.

Epsom to West Croydon for example only has Oyster fares routed 'Clapham Junction not London' (i.e. the assumption is made that the journey is via Zone 2 rather than direct).

Epsom to London Terminals (ie Zone 1 NR) £7.30 peak / £5.10 single.

Not in TfL single fare finder yet.

It would be an interesting one if someone did the journey now that it's possible, but was unable to see the price before setting off - because TfL still haven't published the prices fully. That being the case, TfL would only be entitled to charge a "reasonable" amount, as per S.51 of the Consumer Rights Act. Probably won't ever happen but I always wonder... (and perhaps more so if the addition of Epsom means there are new journeys for which you'll be charged more on Oyster than for a paper ticket).

 

[JonathanH]

It certainly seems strange that Oyster / Contactless is available at Epsom but no information has been published on the TfL website.

The Southern website does confirm it is valid from today even if their fares aren't loaded to the relevant feed that BRFares uses.

https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets/smartcards-oyster-and-plusbus/oyster

Nothing on SWR's website and they seem to be the lead operator.

 

[londonbridge]

Epsom to West Croydon for example only has Oyster fares routed 'Clapham Junction not London' (i.e. the assumption is made that the journey is via Zone 2 rather than direct).

That makes perfect sense (not), why would someone want to go via Clapham Junction and take over an hour when there are direct trains that take twenty five minutes, and even if you change at Sutton it only adds a few minutes on to the journey time.

Still nothing on tfl website single fare finder.

 

[swt class 450]

It is ridiculous that it hasn't been put in to Zone 6 considering that Ewell East and Ewell West are just simply suburbs of Epsom (and are also outside of Greater London as well) and are in Zone 6 but yet Epsom isn't. Also even though it is officially in the county of Surrey i think that Epsom really would fit much better in to the county of Greater London instead. I am surprised at how little information has been published about this extension of oyster and contactless.

 

[si404]

It is ridiculous that it hasn't been put in to Zone 6 considering that Ewell East and Ewell West are just simply suburbs of Epsom

And Watford Junction should be in zone 6 because Moor Park is simply a suburb of Watford.

There's no reason why the stations of the town of Ewell should be in zone 6, beyond the generosity of the TOCs serving them.

Also even though it is officially in the county of Surrey i think that Epsom really would fit much better in to the county of Greater London instead.

The people of Epsom and Ewell in the early 60s disagreed, managing to get the proposed council boundary moved so they remained under the control of Surrey County Council.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is ridiculous that it hasn't been put in to Zone 6 considering that Ewell East and Ewell West are just simply suburbs of Epsom (and are also outside of Greater London as well) and are in Zone 6 but yet Epsom isn't. Also even though it is officially in the county of Surrey i think that Epsom really would fit much better in to the county of Greater London instead. I am surprised at how little information has been published about this extension of oyster and contactless.

I’d continue to bear in mind the key phrase “revenue neutral” and that there are places that really don’t want to be part of Greater London. I’d suggest there’s zero chance of Zone 6 being significantly extended anywhere.

 

[JonathanH]

Still nothing on tfl website single fare finder.

Appeared now.

The Epsom fares look pretty reasonable in most cases, really doesn't need to be in Zone 6. Obviously, they aren't reasonable to the Merstham to Gatwick extension.

Epsom to Coulsdon South £2.80 off-peak / £4.00 peak
Epsom to Merstham £9.10 off-peak / £11.50 peak.

Why don't they even try setting sensible fares for the Merstham to Gatwick extension?

Fares also available for the Hertford North extension - cheaper to get from Epsom to Hertford North (via Thameslink) than Merstham

Epsom to Hertford North £8.20 off-peak / £11.00 peak

 

[si404]

Here's what I've gleaned off BRFares:

Epsom to:
Ewell West (Z6) £2.80 peak, £2.10 off-peak
Stoneleigh (Z5) £3.20 peak, £2.30 off-peak
Worcester Park (Z4) £3.50 peak, £2.80 off-peak
Motspur Park (Z4) £4.00 peak, £2.80 off-peak
Raynes Park (Z4) £4.00 peak, £2.80 off-peak
Wimbledon (Z3) £5.00 peak, £3.30 off-peak
Earlsfield (Z3) £5.10 peak, £3.30 off-peak
Clapham Junction (Z2) £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak
Queenstown Road (Z2) £5.30 peak, £3.70 off-peak
Vauxhall (Z1/2) £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak (seems to be charging Z1 fare as 'Ticket issued to: LONDON TERMINALS', which makes no sense with PAYG)
Waterloo (Z1) £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak

There's still some teething issues:
eg Clapham High Street (Z2, change at Clapham Junction) £7.30 peak, £5.10 off-peak (seems to be charging a Z1 fare - and applys to stations that way out of Clapham Junction, but not the other ways)

There's no fares given to places on the Southern direct route yet, save Balham (which is routed via Clapham Junction).

Fares to LU stations, thanks to typing in Wimbledon Park and it giving me these PAYG options:
Epsom to Z3-6 (including LU): £6.80 peak, £4.80 off-peak
Epsom to Z2-6 (including LU): £7.00 peak, £5.20 off-peak
Epsom to Z1-6 (including LU): £9.00 peak, £6.60 off-peak
LU stations in Z7-9 get charged at the same rate as those within 1-6. There's no other PAYG fares to areas beyond Z6.