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Oyster, Gatwick and capping

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lyesbkz

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Hello,

I made a number of journeys yesterday using my Oyster card, which is linked up to my 16-25 Railcard. All of the journeys were after 10am.

First, I took the Thameslink from Gatwick to St Pancras, for which the fare is £5.30. I then made a number of Underground journeys within zones 1-2, for which the cap would be £4.30.

Rather than costing me £9.60, the day has capped at £12.50. This seems to be the maximum possible cap for off-peak travel with a Railcard (equivalent to Z1-9 + Shenfield).

Had I used two separate Oyster cards, one for Gatwick to St Pancras and the second for my journeys in Z1-2, I'd have spent £9.60 as expected. I could also have saved some money by buying a paper ticket from Gatwick (which is £6.80 rather than £5.30) as the £4.30 cap would have applied to the rest of my travel.

It seems the capping has been affected by the Gatwick journey and I have been charged more than expected - and haven't got the best deal. Has this been worked out correctly, or is it a glitch? Could I successfully apply for a refund for the extra £2.90?

Many thanks,
 
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CyrusWuff

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Providing you haven't used Gatwick Express, £12.55 is the correct Off-Peak cap for a Railcard holder when you've travelled to/from Gatwick Airport. The relevant page can be found here on the TfL site.

Using Contactless rather than Oyster may have worked out cheaper, as the final charge is calculated at the end of the day rather than in real-time, but you wouldn't have benefited from the Railcard discount.
 

MikeWh

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Oyster does not claim to be the cheapest way of getting to Gatwick, the page at http://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/gatwick-payg/ states that if making a return journey then a paper ticket may be cheaper. This seems counter-intuitive since TfL have spent years trying to discourage paper tickets and charging a considerable premium for those who wished to continue using paper.

And TfL are privately fuming about the mess that GTR/DfT have forced on them with fares and caps to Gatwick.

To the OP: Sadly you were correctly charged. By starting at Gatwick you ensured that the only cap which would apply is the Gatwick to zones 1-9 which is £12.55 as CyrusWuff correctly states. Had you finished at Gatwick after making several zone 1-2 journeys then you would have been charged as you hoped. Contactless would also have charged as you hoped, albeit without the railcard discount, so you would still have paid more.

The unquestionable mantra is that Oyster at Gatwick is a convenience rather than value for money, and given that you often need more money on the card than you are going to pay for the journey, even a convenience is pushing things a bit.
 

button_boxer

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The unquestionable mantra is that Oyster at Gatwick is a convenience rather than value for money, and given that you often need more money on the card than you are going to pay for the journey, even a convenience is pushing things a bit.

I feel that what they really wanted for convenience was to be able to accept contactless, but they couldn't get that without coming up with some way to accept Oyster as well.
 

MikeWh

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I feel that what they really wanted for convenience was to be able to accept contactless, but they couldn't get that without coming up with some way to accept Oyster as well.

Yes, you're probably right. But given how well known, even among tourists, the Oyster brand is, they haven't even got that strategy right.
 

lyesbkz

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Providing you haven't used Gatwick Express, £12.55 is the correct Off-Peak cap for a Railcard holder when you've travelled to/from Gatwick Airport. The relevant page can be found here on the TfL site.

Thanks for your reply. I wish I'd seen this page before making the journey!

To the OP: Sadly you were correctly charged. By starting at Gatwick you ensured that the only cap which would apply is the Gatwick to zones 1-9 which is £12.55 as CyrusWuff correctly states. Had you finished at Gatwick after making several zone 1-2 journeys then you would have been charged as you hoped. Contactless would also have charged as you hoped, albeit without the railcard discount, so you would still have paid more.

This is very helpful, although it really is counter-intuitive. Their website could do with being a little clearer on how the caps work.

Thinking about what the cheapest ways to make my journey would have been:

  • £9.60 by using one Oyster card for Gatwick to St Pancras (£5.30) and a second card for the travel in Z1-2 (capping at £4.30)
  • £11.10 by using a paper ticket from Gatwick to St Pancras (£6.80) then Oyster for the travel in Z1-2 (capping at £4.30)
  • £12.50 by putting everything onto the one Oyster card, as I did

It definitely capped at £12.50 and not £12.55, unless there has been a fare increase in the last day or two?
 

transmanche

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Thinking about what the cheapest ways to make my journey would have been:

  • £9.60 by using one Oyster card for Gatwick to St Pancras (£5.30) and a second card for the travel in Z1-2 (capping at £4.30)
  • £11.10 by using a paper ticket from Gatwick to St Pancras (£6.80) then Oyster for the travel in Z1-2 (capping at £4.30)
  • £12.50 by putting everything onto the one Oyster card, as I did

It definitely capped at £12.50 and not £12.55, unless there has been a fare increase in the last day or two?
Or by jumping off the train at East Croydon to touch-out & touch-in again:

  • £9.25 - Gatwick Airport to East Croydon (£2.00) and travel in Z1-5 (capping at £7.25)

Although you have to 'step-back' a train at East Croydon and this assumes all travel is off-peak.

I'm certain this would be what you'd pay if you had two Oyster cards, but with all the confusion about Oyster fares to Gatwick who knows what the cap would be if you only used one card!
 

MikeWh

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It definitely capped at £12.50 and not £12.55, unless there has been a fare increase in the last day or two?

Well in that case it didn't cap. I'm guessing it was:

5.30 - Gatwick to St Pancras
1.60 - Z1-2 off-peak TfL single with railcard discount
1.60 - Z1-2 off-peak TfL single with railcard discount
1.60 - Z1-2 off-peak TfL single with railcard discount
2.40 - Z1-2 peak TfL single because it was between 1600-1900
£12.50 total

Had you made one more journey you'd have been charged the princely sum of 5p!
 

MikeWh

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This is what I'm seeing:

View attachment 28293

Well in that case the TfL website is showing a different figure to the one programmed into the Oyster system. I think the website is right, so the system has 'undercharged' you. It wouldn't be the first time that the Oyster system has calculated railcard discounts incorrectly.
 

James H

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I'm amazed that no-one on the London Assembly has tabled any awkward questions to the mayor (either the previous incumbent or the new one) about the Gatwick Oyster mess.

I've been tempted to raise the issue with the AMs I know but never got round to it.
 

JonathanH

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Is it genuinely a mess? Oyster is only the cheapest method of travel in the zones because they removed off peak day returns in the London area. There are some very good value off-peak 'paper fares' from the Redhill / Gatwick area. The Oyster fare can't be set to undercut those as GTR / DfT would lose a lot of money.

The changes to capping on Contactless appear to have been the result of GTR realising that they had a hole in their takings soon after it was introduced.

Some off-peak users would see their fares rocket if introduction of Oyster from Gatwick and intermediate stations had been introduced in conjunction with the paper fares being removed.
 

MikeWh

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Is it genuinely a mess?
Quite frankly, YES!
  • The fact that most journeys from Gatwick to north of East Croydon can be made cheaper by splitting at East Croydon.
  • The fact that a huge number of journeys are more expensive if you avoid zone 1.
  • The fact that between 1600-1900 you need more PAYG balance than you will actually use to get to Victoria/London Bridge/Blackfriars.
And that's just my 3 most glaring issues for starters.
Oyster is only the cheapest method of travel in the zones because they removed off peak day returns in the London area. There are some very good value off-peak 'paper fares' from the Redhill / Gatwick area. The Oyster fare can't be set to undercut those as GTR / DfT would lose a lot of money.
Whilst removing off-peak paper tickets made Oyster a no-brainer for off-peak travel, pretty much all fares are actually cheaper than their paper equivalents.
The changes to capping on Contactless appear to have been the result of GTR realising that they had a hole in their takings soon after it was introduced.
Largely because they didn't understand how the TfL model worked and how bonkers the fare between Gatwick and East Croydon is in relation to that model.
Some off-peak users would see their fares rocket if introduction of Oyster from Gatwick and intermediate stations had been introduced in conjunction with the paper fares being removed.
I don't think anyone expects them to remove off-peak paper fares where Oyster is extended beyond the zones. But what really needed to be done before Oyster was introduced was a massive simplification of the fare structure between Gatwick and Croydon/London. Then Oyster could have been set at the same as the basic fares and travelcards.
 

bubieyehyeh

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I was travelling on payg oyster last night and broke my journey at east croydon for 9mins to go to a supermarket on my way to gatwick. When I got to Gatwick the barrier initially gave a seek assistance message, I tried once again then it gave a message which read something like a card clash warning, on the third tap it opened the gates and showed a £2 fare (correct for off-peak ecr-gtw with gold card discount).

Is there a minimum time between tapping out and tapping back in at the gateline which caused this issue? If my oyster would have been checked between east croydon and gatwick would it have had an issue?

Just wondering if it was a one off error or something inherent in the system.

p.s. The East Croydon - Gatwick part was charged as a seperate journey in the online journey history. Which was good since it was considerable cheaper.
 
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bb21

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I don't understand what you are asking.

If the station has no continuation exit or OSI set-up, touching out and back in should count as two separate journeys AIUI. There is no minimum time requirement between the two touches.
 

MikeWh

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I was travelling on payg oyster last night and broke my journey at east croydon for 9mins to go to a supermarket on my way to gatwick. When I got to Gatwick the barrier initially gave a seek assistance message, I tried once again then it gave a message which read something like a card clash warning, on the third tap it opened the gates and showed a £2 fare (correct for off-peak ecr-gtw with gold card discount).

Is there a minimum time between tapping out and tapping back in at the gateline which caused this issue? If my oyster would have been checked between east croydon and gatwick would it have had an issue?

Just wondering if it was a one off error or something inherent in the system.

p.s. The East Croydon - Gatwick part was charged as a seperate journey in the online journey history. Which was good since it was considerable cheaper.

If it eventually gave the correct display then there was an issue reading your card for the other two. There is no minimum length for a journey so it definitely wasn't a timing issue.

And yes, thanks to the bonkers cheap fare between Gatwick and East Croydon it is almost always cheaper to split there if travelling to/from somewhere further north. All down to GTR/DfT.
 

bubieyehyeh

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Thank you bb21 and Mike, I wasn't sure if it counted as a same station or contiunation exit after reading Mike's site.

It was first time I tried the splitting at ECR on Oyster when travelling to Gatwick, but due to the delayed trains it didn't delay me. Also it ended my journey started in the peak, and then journey to gatwick was off-peak.
 
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lyesbkz

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I'm shortly going to be making the same set of journeys as those in my original post:

I made a number of journeys yesterday using my Oyster card, which is linked up to my 16-25 Railcard. All of the journeys were after 10am.

First, I took the Thameslink from Gatwick to St Pancras, for which the fare is £5.30. I then made a number of Underground journeys within zones 1-2, for which the cap would be £4.30.

Is the cheapest way still going to be to use one Railcard-discounted Oyster card for Gatwick to St Pancras (via Thameslink) and then a second Railcard-discounted Oyster card for travel in zones 1-2? I'd rather not have to use two Oyster cards, but any other method worked out more expensive last time!

My understanding is

  • Paper tickets cost more than Oyster for GTW-STP,
  • I can't get Railcard discounts using contactless, and
  • if I use one Oyster it will cost more than a GTW-STP single plus the Z1-2 cap
 

MikeWh

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I'm shortly going to be making the same set of journeys as those in my original post:



Is the cheapest way still going to be to use one Railcard-discounted Oyster card for Gatwick to St Pancras (via Thameslink) and then a second Railcard-discounted Oyster card for travel in zones 1-2? I'd rather not have to use two Oyster cards, but any other method worked out more expensive last time!

My understanding is

  • Paper tickets cost more than Oyster for GTW-STP,
  • I can't get Railcard discounts using contactless, and
  • if I use one Oyster it will cost more than a GTW-STP single plus the Z1-2 cap

Your understandings are correct. You can actually save a small amount if you can change at East Croydon (and switch Oyster cards there). The railcard discounted off peak Oyster single is £2 for GTW-ECR then a £7.40 zones 1-5 off-peak cap - total £9.40. Or a £5.35 GTW-STP and £4.35 zones 1-2 off-peak cap - total £9.70. However, there is one major downside. You will need £5.35 on the Oyster card to enter at GTW thanks to the draconian rules imposed on TfL by DfT/GTR.

Only other note is that if you do it the other way, finishing at Gatwick, then you only need one card.
 

island

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For Gatwick to St Pancras on thameslink and then z1-2 I was going to suggest you buy a railcard discounted "thameslink only" offpeak travelcard for £9.55.

However brfares indicates it might have a minimum £12 fare with some railcards

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=GTW&dest=STP&rlc=YNG

The OP's 16-25 Railcard has a £12 minimum fare only if used to travel before 1000 hours Monday to Friday September to June inclusive
 

yorkie

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....
My understanding is

  • Paper tickets cost more than Oyster for GTW-STP,...
It's not that simple*.

Paper fares vary from £8.10 (undiscounted) for a same-day return at a weekend, or £8 if only going one way, up to £10.40 each way at peak time.

The Oyster fare varies from £8.10 (undiscounted) off-peak each way, up to £14.20 peak each way.

Using Oyster, if you travel from Gatwick to St Pancras there is no evening peak, but if you add on a tube segment to the journey the fare will more than triple for you as it would be considered peak (even if you tap in at St Pancras just after 7pm I believe) and you'd lose your Railcard discount and be charged the mixed mode cap on top.

*According to National Rail Enquiries, fares are simple.
 
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