Oyster Missuse!

[Urban Gateline]

This may be a hypothetical question as I have no evidence that people are doing this, but I am quite sure there are some who do...

What is to stop someone coming from an unbarriered station or one with barriers left open at the time, with no intention of purchasing a valid ticket or validating their Oyster card, and then to have Zonal Oyster Travelcard season and then to simply touch out at a barriered station within the Zones of their Oyster season?

One controversial example: Gatwick to London Victoria

Scenario: Barriers in Gatwick left open and no manual check, passenger boards a train without buying a ticket, no onboard check occurs, passengers alights at London Victoria and touches their Z1-2 Oyster season on the barriers to get out.

Result: Lost revenue for Southern and no motivation for the hypothetical passenger to purchase a ticket.


This is a weakness in the Oyster system in my opinion, and also the result of a lack of ticket checks. Yes I realise that most passengers are honest and will not do this, Yes the barriers might be in operation at Gatwick sometimes and this prevents the above scenario occuring although harcore fare evaders will always be able to bypass the barriers as we know.

 

[RJ]

This may be a hypothetical question as I have no evidence that people are doing this, but I am quite sure there are some who do...

What is to stop someone coming from an unbarriered station or one with barriers left open at the time, with no intention of purchasing a valid ticket or validating their Oyster card, and then to have Zonal Oyster Travelcard season and then to simply touch out at a barriered station within the Zones of their Oyster season?

One controversial example: Gatwick to London Victoria

Scenario: Barriers in Gatwick left open and no manual check, passenger boards a train without buying a ticket, no onboard check occurs, passengers alights at London Victoria and touches their Z1-2 Oyster season on the barriers to get out.

Result: Lost revenue for Southern and no motivation for the hypothetical passenger to purchase a ticket.


This is a weakness in the Oyster system in my opinion, and also the result of a lack of ticket checks. Yes I realise that most passengers are honest and will not do this, Yes the barriers might be in operation at Gatwick sometimes and this prevents the above scenario occuring although harcore fare evaders will always be able to bypass the barriers as we know.

It happens all the time, with paper tickets as well. I foiled quite a few cases as many frauds are stupid, despite thinking they're being clever.

 

[Stigy]

Yup, happens all the time. Just about detecting these things, which can be a bit time consuming, but you get a nose for who's honest and who isn't when you've been dealing with such cases of fare evasion for a while.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There is something quite satisfying about shutting the doors on somebody who has ran off of your train, touched "in" at the Oyster card reader on the platform and is in the process of running back to the train though. You dont get them very often, but when you do it feels like a bit of justice has been served.

How can you stop it without inconveniencing everybody else? I'm not sure you can without spending more money than you would save.

 

[ess]

There is something quite satisfying about shutting the doors on somebody who has ran off of your train, touched "in" at the Oyster card reader on the platform and is in the process of running back to the train though. You dont get them very often, but when you do it feels like a bit of justice has been served.

How can you stop it without inconveniencing everybody else? I'm not sure you can without spending more money than you would save.

For those of us who need a paper ticket for outside zone 6 and want to use Oyster PAYG from zone 6 that attitude sucks.

 

[Urban Gateline]

For those of us who need a paper ticket for outside zone 6 and want to use Oyster PAYG from zone 6 that attitude sucks.

I think Cherry Picker is aiming to inconvenience those who have already travelled without a valid ticket for part of their journey and get off to attempt to touch in their Oyster card, at least in your case you have a valid paper ticket for the other part of your journey!

 

[ert47]

One controversial example: Gatwick to London Victoria

Scenario: Barriers in Gatwick left open and no manual check, passenger boards a train without buying a ticket, no onboard check occurs, passengers alights at London Victoria and touches their Z1-2 Oyster season on the barriers to get out.

Result: Lost revenue for Southern and no motivation for the hypothetical passenger to purchase a ticket.

Doesn't an Oyster (on National Rail) require you to touch in - to start your journey and then touch out to end your journey - regardless? I would have thought that either the passenger would be charged the maximum 1-6 fare (penalty fare) or 'Seek Assistance' would pop up on the gate...

 

[causton]

Not if you have a season travelcard - you don't need to touch in or out anywhere within your zones
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is something quite satisfying about shutting the doors on somebody who has ran off of your train, touched "in" at the Oyster card reader on the platform and is in the process of running back to the train though. You dont get them very often, but when you do it feels like a bit of justice has been served.

How can you stop it without inconveniencing everybody else? I'm not sure you can without spending more money than you would save.

As said earlier, I have done that (and reverse!) at New Barnet on an FCC train - but have always had a valid ticket for both sections!

 

[chrisg]

Doesn't an Oyster (on National Rail) require you to touch in - to start your journey and then touch out to end your journey - regardless? I would have thought that either the passenger would be charged the maximum 1-6 fare (penalty fare) or 'Seek Assistance' would pop up on the gate...

If you have a valid travelcard it will let you touch out regardless or whether you touched in or not, as long as the travelcard is valid for the station you are touching out at - isn't that correct?

 

[causton]

If you have a valid travelcard it will let you touch out regardless or whether you touched in or not, as long as the travelcard is valid for the station you are touching out at - isn't that correct?

Yes AFAIK, the TfL CoC say you should touch in and out all the time, but if you are within your zones you will be covered and do not need to touch in or out, or can just touch in, or can just touch out!

 

[Urban Gateline]

If you have a valid travelcard it will let you touch out regardless or whether you touched in or not, as long as the travelcard is valid for the station you are touching out at - isn't that correct?

Even if you don't have a Travelcard on the Oyster, you can still use PAYG in the same scenario I mentioned above, and for that you'd incur maximum fare charges, although this can still be cheaper than a paper ticket sometimes and the revenue from that doesn't even go to the TOC where the passenger touched out!

 

[johnnycache]

There was an attempt to curb this with the Oyster Extension Permit (OEP) - for passengers starting with a travelcard season but continuing beyond the zones it covered you were supposed to go to a TVM and activate an OEP - this meant that a minimum fare was deducted when touching in and if you failed to touch out it would be treated as an incomplete journey. If the card was inspected on the train (beyond the valid travelcard zones) there would be no liability to a penalty fare. TOCs gave this up because it was regarded as too complicated and because of opposition from user groups etc.

 

[RJ]

There was an attempt to curb this with the Oyster Extension Permit (OEP) - for passengers starting with a travelcard season but continuing beyond the zones it covered you were supposed to go to a TVM and activate an OEP - this meant that a minimum fare was deducted when touching in and if you failed to touch out it would be treated as an incomplete journey. If the card was inspected on the train (beyond the valid travelcard zones) there would be no liability to a penalty fare. TOCs gave this up because it was regarded as too complicated and because of opposition from user groups etc.

It was essentially pointless for numerous reasons, not least that there was no PAYG penalty if you didn't have one loaded and large parts of London had no facilities to load OEPs at stations.

 

[trc666]

I've had a situation before where a woman came up to me asking if she would be charged maximum fare for not touching in if she touched out, asked her where she had came in from, and she said Winchester (also turns out she had no ticket from there either). Cut a long story short, she tried to touch out, insufficient credit, and was promptly PF'ed. No excuse really as Winchester is gated, has TVMs and two Ticket Offices.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I've had a situation before where a woman came up to me asking if she would be charged maximum fare for not touching in if she touched out, asked her where she had came in from, and she said Winchester (also turns out she had no ticket from there either). Cut a long story short, she tried to touch out, insufficient credit, and was promptly PF'ed. No excuse really as Winchester is gated, has TVMs and two Ticket Offices.

All good and well, but IF this lady did have enough credit on her Oyster card and was able to touch out, then nothing could be done, effectively depriving SWT a lot of revenue, I doubt anyone would chase after her!

Winchester may only have part time Gateline hours hence she was able to get on a train without a ticket, so this just shows how much reliance there is on onboard staff to do ticket checks correctly.

 

[A-driver]

I have a mate in peterbourgh and he openly admits that he rarely buys a ticket to London. Occasionally he will pay the fine if an inspector catches him, otherwise the maximum oyster charge for touching out at kings x having not touched in anywhere is still cheaper than buying a ticket he reckons!

 

[button_boxer]

Presumably if the same card was regularly incurring maximum fares at the same station there'd be something in the system that could flag that as suspicious. Is there support in the Oyster system to block a particular card (either entirely or just make it show "seek assistance" at a particular station) and attach a note to the account for the gateline staff?

But for obvious reasons this is the kind of detail that TfL and the TOCs wouldn't want widely known...

 

[bengolding]

I have a mate in peterbourgh and he openly admits that he rarely buys a ticket to London. Occasionally he will pay the fine if an inspector catches him, otherwise the maximum oyster charge for touching out at kings x having not touched in anywhere is still cheaper than buying a ticket he reckons!

A friend used to commute from Huntingdon to Kings Cross daily until he moved to London recently. He said on board checks were very rare indeed. Granted there are barrers at most stations (manual at Peterborough usually) but FCC must be losing a fair amount. Do FCC RPIs concentrate on the Welwyn loop?

 

[neilmc]

Presumably if the same card was regularly incurring maximum fares at the same station there'd be something in the system that could flag that as suspicious. Is there support in the Oyster system to block a particular card (either entirely or just make it show "seek assistance" at a particular station) and attach a note to the account for the gateline staff?

But for obvious reasons this is the kind of detail that TfL and the TOCs wouldn't want widely known...

I wouldn't dream of trying on anything like this because in my naivety I assume that most trains have on-board checks.

But why should TfL forgo a small profit incurred because a TOC can't be bothered checking tickets and thus incur a much larger loss, isn't that the spirit of the privatised network?

 

[34D]

A friend used to commute from Huntingdon to Kings Cross daily until he moved to London recently. He said on board checks were very rare indeed. Granted there are barrers at most stations (manual at Peterborough usually) but FCC must be losing a fair amount. Do FCC RPIs concentrate on the Welwyn loop?

Over the past couple of years, FCC has increased on-train RPI substantially, on all parts of the network, and with no apparent pattern. You are as likely to find an RPI on pbo-st neots as you are Hertford loop or welwyn terminators

 

[LondonJohn]

Presumably if the same card was regularly incurring maximum fares at the same station there'd be something in the system that could flag that as suspicious. Is there support in the Oyster system to block a particular card (either entirely or just make it show "seek assistance" at a particular station) and attach a note to the account for the gateline staff?

But for obvious reasons this is the kind of detail that TfL and the TOCs wouldn't want widely known...

I am sure I read somewhere that if you had a pattern of travel and incomplete journeys the system would assume that you got on at a regular station and charge you for your "regular" journey and assume you touched in/out there so you wuold not get an incomplete journey.

 

[MikeWh]

I am sure I read somewhere that if you had a pattern of travel and incomplete journeys the system would assume that you got on at a regular station and charge you for your "regular" journey and assume you touched in/out there so you wuold not get an incomplete journey.

You have to make the complete regular journey more often than not though! I'm not sure of specifics, but I think it only works 2-3 times a month.

Going back, I don't know whether they monitor excessive incomplete journeys, but they can certainly blacklist cards such that they are deactivated when used.

 

[swt_passenger]

You have to make the complete regular journey more often than not though! I'm not sure of specifics, but I think it only works 2-3 times a month.

Is it even happening yet Mike? Last I read it was still under development - in response to all the political claims that it was just all too difficult to find the validators out in the sticks (or something like that).

Will be interesting if they eventually do find that there's a whole load of people who forget the same thing each and every day.

 

[calc7]

At the same time, it's only fair that Z12/Z1256 Oyster/paper tickets open gates at London terminals and elsewhere as they are often legitimately combined with a boundary zone ticket.

 

[island]

At the same time, it's only fair that Z12/Z1256 Oyster/paper tickets open gates at London terminals and elsewhere as they are often legitimately combined with a boundary zone ticket.

Now if only you could use an Oyster season ticket at the fast platforms at Paddington...

 

[calc7]

Now if only you could use an Oyster season ticket at the fast platforms at Paddington...

Well, according to the EMT Station Supervisor at St Pancras, "we don't accept Oyster". :roll:

 

[island]

Aren't there Oyster readers towards the left of the gateline at St Pancras Higher Level?

 

[RJ]

Well, according to the EMT Station Supervisor at St Pancras, "we don't accept Oyster". :roll:

I never once had a problem with showing my Record card to get through the barriers. If you hold a ticket from a Boundary Zone, then the idea is that the issuer should already have verified that you held a valid travelcard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Aren't there Oyster readers towards the left of the gateline at St Pancras Higher Level?

There's a special manual gate that has to be opened before you can access them. Quite an entertaining arrangement at weekends when FCC operate from there.

 

[island]

I never once had a problem with showing my Record card to get through the barriers. If you hold a ticket from a Boundary Zone, then the idea is that the issuer should already have verified that you held a valid travelcard.

That's all well and good if you have an annual. What of the people with a weekly/monthly/etc. travelcard on Oyster?

 

[RJ]

That's all well and good if you have an annual. What of the people with a weekly/monthly/etc. travelcard on Oyster?

Then it's still valid. If there are any issues with gateline or on board staff then it needs to be highlighted with EMT. It hasn't been a problem for me so I'm not inclined to do anything about it.

A retail bulletin has been put out within a certain other TOC with regards to accepting Oyster/Boundary Zone combinations. I suggest anyone actually using Oyster ensures that they get a BZ extension, as an extension from a named station is more likely to cause problems.