Oyster readers at Clapham Junction

Status
Not open for further replies.

Carefree

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2010
Messages
53
Hi. I frequently make a journey which requires me to change from a paper advance ticket to an Oyster pre-pay at Clapham Junction (or vice versa). I have found that the process of touching in or touching out, without actually leaving the station, is a bit of a nightmare.

Those that know Clapham Junction will understand that it is a huge sprawling station, with a long & awkward walk to the exit from more or less any of its 17 platforms. As far as I can tell there is only ONE non-exit Oyster reader in the whole station: on platform 17 (which, with its narrow stairwell access, is the most difficult platform to gain access to within about 5mins of the arrival or departure of any train).

There probably isn't a station in the whole Oyster area where people are more likely to want to flit between ticket & Oyster, so why is it made so awkward here?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
There are readers on platform 1/2 however this is a compulsory ticket area and a ticket valid for travel from platform 1/2 is needed before you can enter the platform so a ticket to say Guildford would not be valid for access however an Oyster card should otherwise the whole thing would be even more ridiculous than it already is.

Additionally all three of the datelines will be able to take oyster cards otherwise no-one using one would be able get into the station.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
Last time I went there, the validator on platform 1/2 was out of use due to building works and you had to go to the temporary exit to touch in/out.
 

Brucey

Member
Joined
7 Jan 2010
Messages
670
Platform 17 has two readers.

Platform 16 (services in opposite direction to 17) also has two readers.
 

John @ home

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,150
a ticket valid for travel from platform 1/2 is needed before you can enter the platform
This surprises me. Do you know of a source which clearly informs the passenger or potential passenger that a ticket valid for travel from platform 1 or 2 is needed to be allowed to enter that platform island?

The only definition I am aware of is:
“Compulsory Ticket Area” means any area at a station identified by a notice which indicates that people may not enter that area without a ticket or other authority allowing them to enter that area, or to travel in a train arriving at or departing from that area.

http://www.raileasy.co.uk/index.cfm?objectid=255965C6-B30C-CA2E-8CC8E7FD3864A81E
I see nothing in this definition which negates the normal right of any ticket holder to enter any part of the station accessible to passengers in order to use the facilities provided there. An Oyster validator is most certainly a facility.

My opinion is that the holder of any railway ticket valid to, from or via a station by rail or rail replacement bus may legitimately claim that they hold a ticket or other authority allowing them to enter a Compulsory Ticket Area within that station for the purposes of access to and/or use of an Oyster validator.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
This surprises me. Do you know of a source which clearly informs the passenger or potential passenger that a ticket valid for travel from platform 1 or 2 is needed to be allowed to enter that platform island?

The only definition I am aware of is:
I see nothing in this definition which negates the normal right of any ticket holder to enter any part of the station accessible to passengers in order to use the facilities provided there. An Oyster validator is most certainly a facility.

My opinion is that the holder of any railway ticket valid to, from or via a station by rail or rail replacement bus may legitimately claim that they hold a ticket or other authority allowing them to enter a Compulsory Ticket Area within that station for the purposes of access to and/or use of an Oyster validator.
OK point taken and having read the signs again I can see have interpreted them how TfL would like them interpreted which is somewhat different to what they actually say.

However they do make clear that if using an Oyster card then it must already be validated prior to crossing the red line.

I also found a notice a out Oyster reader locations that may help the OP.









Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
6,211
Location
Crayford
However they do make clear that if using an Oyster card then it must already be validated prior to crossing the red line.
If that were true, what would be the point of having a yellow reader within the CTA? Surely use of that reader would require you to cross the red line without a validated Oyster card.

I'm pretty sure that they say "or validated Oyster card" to describe what you must have if you haven't got a paper ticket. If you are starting from Clapham Junction then you will validate at the gateline, so no problem. If you have arrived on a paper ticket then you are allowed access to all the station facilities, so no problem.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
If that were true, what would be the point of having a yellow reader within the CTA? Surely use of that reader would require you to cross the red line without a validated Oyster card.

I'm pretty sure that they say "or validated Oyster card" to describe what you must have if you haven't got a paper ticket. If you are starting from Clapham Junction then you will validate at the gateline, so no problem. If you have arrived on a paper ticket then you are allowed access to all the station facilities, so no problem.
Really the readers should be at the top of the stairs and the problem would be solved.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
 

John @ home

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
1 Mar 2008
Messages
5,150
they do make clear that if using an Oyster card then it must already be validated prior to crossing the red line.
I don't agree that an Oyster card must already be validated prior to entering a compulsory ticket area, and I don't think that it is anyone's intention that the rules should be interpreted in that way.

I use Wellesley Road tram stop, which has a compulsory ticket area. It is not possible to validate an Oyster card at that tram stop prior to entering the compulsory ticket area. It seems to me that other, more rational, interpretations of the rules will prevail.
 

Carefree

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2010
Messages
53
Thanks for all replies. I've searched up and down platform 16, and if there is an Oyster reader there it is well-hidden. There is no presently operational reader on platform 1. Which makes the two on platform 17, situated either side of the bottom of the station's narrowest stairwell, the only non-gateway readers.

Given the over-proliferation of these things in some pretty odd places on the network, it does seem strange that Clapham Junction is so poorly served. It is also presently meaning I'm missing connections at the station, due to the simple matter of using the cheapest available combination of tickets for my journey.
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,526
Thanks for all replies. I've searched up and down platform 16, and if there is an Oyster reader there it is well-hidden. There is no presently operational reader on platform 1. Which makes the two on platform 17, situated either side of the bottom of the station's narrowest stairwell, the only non-gateway readers.

Given the over-proliferation of these things in some pretty odd places on the network, it does seem strange that Clapham Junction is so poorly served. It is also presently meaning I'm missing connections at the station, due to the simple matter of using the cheapest available combination of tickets for my journey.
To give another perspective of the debate, if you are forced to come through a Gateline then at least we can check you have a valid ticket combination. It is my belief that some of these standalone Oyster readers encourage fare evasion when they are in a barriered station.

What is to stop someone coming from an unbarriered station without touching in their Oyster card full well knowing they can just touch in on these standalone readers without being challenged for a ticket from where they came from? I know this will not apply to you and it may inconvenience you however it gives a valid reason for not plastering these standalone Oyster readers about everywhere!

The only consolation may be that you will be able to touch in and out at the Grant Road exit Gateline at Clapham Junction when it is finally finished in July, maybe that'll help a bit?
 

Brucey

Member
Joined
7 Jan 2010
Messages
670
Urban Gateline, would you be able to confirm if the readers on P16 are still there?

Last time I changed trains at CLJ was back in December, so they may have been removed since then.

As a fare paying passenger, these readers can be incredibly useful and allow for much shorter connection times (especially somewhere like CLJ where it can take a while to reach the barriers), however there must be a good amount of fare evasion that happens due to their presence. I can see why TOCs don't really like them.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
To give another perspective of the debate, if you are forced to come through a Gateline then at least we can check you have a valid ticket combination. It is my belief that some of these standalone Oyster readers encourage fare evasion when they are in a barriered station.

What is to stop someone coming from an unbarriered station without touching in their Oyster card full well knowing they can just touch in on these standalone readers without being challenged for a ticket from where they came from?
A very fair point of view

I know this will not apply to you and it may inconvenience you however it gives a valid reason for not plastering these standalone Oyster readers about everywhere!

The only consolation may be that you will be able to touch in and out at the Grant Road exit Gateline at Clapham Junction when it is finally finished in July, maybe that'll help a bit?
I assume there is no oyster season or paper ticket that is suitable for the OP's journey?
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,526
Urban Gateline, would you be able to confirm if the readers on P16 are still there?

Last time I changed trains at CLJ was back in December, so they may have been removed since then.

As a fare paying passenger, these readers can be incredibly useful and allow for much shorter connection times (especially somewhere like CLJ where it can take a while to reach the barriers), however there must be a good amount of fare evasion that happens due to their presence. I can see why TOCs don't really like them.
I will have a look when I go to work today and let you know late this evening ;)

Of course I sympathise with passengers who genuinely need to make tight connections and have valid tickets because it is a big station to walk through just to reach any Oyster readers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I assume there is no oyster season or paper ticket that is suitable for the OP's journey?
This may well be the case that part of the journey is using Oyster PAYG and the other part with a season paper ticket as this may oddly enough be the cheapest combination!
 

Kentish Paul

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
454
Location
Ashford Kent
Had something similar back in April. Returning from Yeovil Junction To Ashford (Kent) on an off peak return, i went from Waterloo to Brockley (via London Bridge) to visit a friend using my PAYG oyster card. All fine but on the return back at London Bridge I went to platforms 5/6 to continue back to Ashford but noticed all the oyster readers had been removed. So to end my oyster journey from Brockley I had to walk down the ramp to the barriers, touch out, and re enter with my paper ticket. No ticket problems but the extra walk meant i missed my intended train. Luckily only a 30 minute wait.
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,526
Yeah platform 15/16 readers seem to be non-existent, Platform 17 is the only platform with working standalone Oyster readers at Clapham Junction!

Case in point today about fare evasion as a female passenger that came to my barriers asked to touch in her Oyster card, when questioned (at Clapham Junction) as to where she came from she produced a Woking to Surbiton ticket and had nothing to cover the journey from Surbiton to Clapham Junction. She claimed to have touched in at Surbiton however I checked her Oyster card with a handheld reader and found this not to be the case. She was promptly made to pay the fare due before being allowed to touch in. In fact she was lucky that there was no RPI working with me otherwise she would have been liable to a penalty fare at best or an MG11 report at worst!

So there we have it, if this lady had used the standalone readers she would have avoided such questioning and saved some money by avoiding a fare with the short ticket she had. Of course I'm not suggesting most people would do this but there are some who will abuse the system using these readers!
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,847
She was promptly made to pay the fare due before being allowed to touch in. In fact she was lucky that there was no RPI working with me otherwise she would have been liable to a penalty fare at best or an MG11 report at worst!
It's a shame that you were not trained for MG11s. Now that she has got away with it this time, is there anything to deter her from trying again next time?
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,502
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
It's a shame that you were not trained for MG11s. Now that she has got away with it this time, is there anything to deter her from trying again next time?
Having witnessed the situations at this gateline many times, it's a huge shame that he's not trained to issue Penalty Fares or MG11s - or at least that there is at least 1 RPI around at all times! It must be worthwhile to have one on duty all the time shared between the 3 exits that is 'on call' as needed - the amount of early afternoon people walking up to the barriers with invalid Megatrain 'tickets', 'I used my Oyster from Horsham' type people etc...!
 

Urban Gateline

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2011
Messages
1,526
It's a shame that you were not trained for MG11s. Now that she has got away with it this time, is there anything to deter her from trying again next time?
Indeed there is nothing to stop her doing it again...! Unfortunately SWT give us barrier staff little power to do anything, we don't even have an Avantix to issue tickets for fares due, which is very basic indeed as we must then refer the passenger to the ticket office!

However SWT would need to increase our pay if we ever were to get more responsibilities as we get £15.3k P/A :cry:whereas an RPA gets £25k and RPI £34k!
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,031
Location
Yorkshire
So there we have it, if this lady had used the standalone readers she would have avoided such questioning and saved some money by avoiding a fare with the short ticket she had. Of course I'm not suggesting most people would do this but there are some who will abuse the system using these readers!
Indeed. When I used to commute on the GN drain, it was normal to see people touch in at the stand alone validators on Moorgate plats 9 and 10 (bottom of the escalators) then touch out at the barrier-line at the top of those escalators. This was before oyster payg was valid north of Finsbury Park.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top